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TOPIC: New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows?

New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 14:11 #395445

  • zed1015
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Getting bored after completing the Drouin so time for another ZED project.
Someone said you'll never get a 1000 motor in a 750 Zephyr frame.
So o o o ! ! ! Never say never :lol:

Quick mock up.
Low comp Wiseco 1428 big block, Geep 11 twin plugged head, Mk2 welded crank, MTC Lock-up clutch, Srad swinger, Zx10r running gear.
Turbo or supercharger to be decided,
Whatever comes cheapest :)



Donor 750 Zeph frame. Motor is tight. Touches everywhere and more.



Cantilever suspension would look good.


Motor goes in but lower frame rails are out.











Zx10 running gear and srad arm fitted.


Change of plan for suspension,
Now gone rising rate.
Gixer 1000k swinger, 750 Srad linkage, Bandit 6 shock with Yam R6 spring.





On it's wheels.
Engine is stressed member.


Needs any alloy tank sitting on those sloping top rails and a single seat to complete the look.

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 14:21 #395447

  • larrycavan
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Interesting project :)

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 15:10 #395456

  • testarossa
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I like the look of the mockup, but I have some questions. Was the original zephyr frame using the motor as a stressed memeber? I'm guessing no. Also, using this particular motor as a stressed member it looks like the rear end is attached at the lower case and the front end is attached at the upper case, so essentially you have 17 x 6mm bolts and a bead of adhesive to take the strain. Does this concern you, or do you have plans to brace the motor additionally? I have never seen this done before, and I am curious if it will hold. Have the Bimota frames used the motor as a stressed member, I can't remember?

Looks cool, I like all the black and gold. Keep up the good work.
1978 KZ1000 A2 Click--->Build Thread
1982 CB750F
2004 ZX-10R
Spring, TX

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 15:28 #395463

  • hocbj23
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Back in the mid 50s,Zundapp built a lovely 250 two stroke with the motor as a stressed member.There was no front downtube at all.As best I can remember,the motor was "slung" underneath the top tubes and attached there plus at or near the rear swing arm.Looked a little funky but very rigid and handled very well.Looks like ur mockup has a lot of downforce precisely where there is no support=frame cracks if not well braced.bj

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 16:27 #395474

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Engine is mounted in three places which forms a triangle(Very rigid) two at the back and one at the front.just like the GPZ11.
Cases are bolted together by the 6mm bolts and TWELVE 10mm HD studs at the crank As well as all the bolts on the side covers.
If that lot can hold together in a 300hp + drag bike then i don't think it's gonna drop out of the frame :laugh:

There are plenty of examples using the zed motor as a stressed member.

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 18:31 #395492

  • Old Man Rock
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What 750 frame, there's nothing left of it.... :blink: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I LUV this modding stuff, sooooooo coooooool! B)

Keep them images coming...

OMR
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 20:10 #395507

  • PLUMMEN
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its gonna be hard finding turbo pistons off the shelf for a motor using gpz head,best thing i came up with was 10.25:1 kz pistons with j style head,brings you down to around 8.25:1-8.75:1 depending on who you ask B)
Still recovering,some days are better than others.

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 21:21 #395514

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mtc and pitstop can make it happen.
1976 kz900 in parts but will be going some day soon
1980 kz1000G1
1976 kz900 parts bike
1979 kz1000 shaftie parts bike
1978 kz1000 33mm smoothies 1075 kit
Troutdale Oregon USA

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 21:28 #395515

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www.mtceng.com/index.php?option=com_k2&v...0/1000&Itemid=100158

Not sure what the static compression difference is with the GPZ head, but 7.8:1 for Kz900/1000 - that seems like it wouldn't be a J head static compression number.

I'm *definitely* subscribed!

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 01 Sep 2010 21:30 #395516

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Do you have the three mount points done already on the engine? Any better shots you could post? I'm extremely curious about the stressed member idea...

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 00:20 #395528

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PLUMMEN wrote:

its gonna be hard finding turbo pistons off the shelf for a motor using gpz head,best thing i came up with was 10.25:1 kz pistons with j style head,brings you down to around 8.25:1-8.75:1 depending on who you ask B)


Anywhere from 6:1 to 8.5:1 will do the job.
I already have the 8:1 wiseco's
Gpz head knocks that down to 6:1
Head has enough meat on it to safely remove 1.3mm without getting too close to the valve seats which brings it back up around 7.5:1.
This is exactly what i did with the Drouin supercharged 'Z' .

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 04:37 #395543

  • testarossa
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zed1015 wrote:

Engine is mounted in three places which forms a triangle(Very rigid) two at the back and one at the front.just like the GPZ11.
Cases are bolted together by the 6mm bolts and TWELVE 10mm HD studs at the crank As well as all the bolts on the side covers.
If that lot can hold together in a 300hp + drag bike then i don't think it's gonna drop out of the frame :laugh:

There are plenty of examples using the zed motor as a stressed member.


I just noticed the upper rear mounts, and that's a good point about the 10mm bolts. I totally forgot about those. Looks like you are off to a good start. I can't wait to see the finished product. Will you post details along the way?
1978 KZ1000 A2 Click--->Build Thread
1982 CB750F
2004 ZX-10R
Spring, TX

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 05:25 #395553

  • TeK9iNe
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I think I'm on the other side of the fence with this one :blush: Sorry...

There are no triangles in the engine designed to prevent torsion. You could drive a hundred bolts straight up and down or side to side thru the engine and they will still torque end to end fairly easily.

We've seen these engines actualy twist in racing videos while they were in double cradle frames. Using no cradle and transfering the between tire lateral energy directly to the cases of the engine can be disasterous and dare I say possibly fatal :dry:

I'm not saying that it cant be done, but there is alot to consider here. These old engines are considerably heavier than the newer counterparts that use these setups, and the bike is alot heavier too. not to mention that the frames used for this on street bikes are almost 50X the strentgh by design, that is alot of extra tubing and metal required to get that kind of engineered strength.
Because of the unsprung weight differences, the torsion input is incredible too... I worry.

Please be safe and get the advise/mathematics from an industry engineer into your head first.

I've seen the "it should work", kill my friends. I would deffinately not want to hear of any tragedy here.

Sorry, just being sincere. Not just blowing this out my a$$ or trying to be a hero. maybe just use it for drag, and my opinion was unneccessary! :laugh:

Looks F'ing awesome.

B)
Motorcycle Shop Owner/Operator

79 Kawie Z1000 LTD
81 Kawie Z1000 CSR
83 Honda VT750C A
85 Kawie GPZ900 A2
86 Zukie GS1150 EG
93 Yamie XV1100 E
Lucky to have rolled many old bikes through my doors ;)

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Last edit: by TeK9iNe.

New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 06:02 #395557

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tesstarossa wrote:

Will you post more details along the way ?

Will do but sometimes have trouble posting pic's on this site but there are more details and pics on the Z1 OWNERS SITE -

HERE -

www.z1ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16408&start=0

No need to register on the site to view topics,Everyone welcome.

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 06:15 #395560

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Excellent! Thanks for the link. I will likely be a member in short order. That jig for the engine pick-up points is brilliant.
1978 KZ1000 A2 Click--->Build Thread
1982 CB750F
2004 ZX-10R
Spring, TX

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 06:51 #395563

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i get giggley just looking at zeds projects.

onward and upward!

if you have seen the quality of this mans projects before i do not believe that there is any reason to question his judgement when it comes to building bada$$ed kawi's.just simply watch in slack jawed amazement while he builds the bike and you see how he overcomes everyones concerns.

tony foale took a z1r and removed the frame.
completely.
he bolted a head stock to the outter head studs by building a tubular structure that held the steering head and using longer studs on the outter four head bolts(two head bolt mounting locations per side).he then bolted aluminum plates to the two upper and lower mounting points on the cases in the rear and pivoted the swingarm in between the plates.
anyone heard of fritz w.egli?


leon
skiatook,oklahoma 1980 z1r,1978 kz 1000 z1r x 3,
1976 kz 900 x 3
i make what i can,and save the rest!

billybiltit.blogspot.com/

www.kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/325862-triple-tree-custom-work

kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/294594-frame-bracing?limitstart=0
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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 06:55 #395566

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oh yeah keep postin!
i can't see anything but red x's on the other site so what you put here is likely all i'll see.



leon
skiatook,oklahoma 1980 z1r,1978 kz 1000 z1r x 3,
1976 kz 900 x 3
i make what i can,and save the rest!

billybiltit.blogspot.com/

www.kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/325862-triple-tree-custom-work

kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/294594-frame-bracing?limitstart=0
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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 07:27 #395581

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Yeah Leon, I have seen the Drouin, and it's an inspiration. I was just trying to extract a little knowledge for potential future use.

I have read a lot of Tony Foale's info online and it seems that he tried everything possible with a motorcycle design.
1978 KZ1000 A2 Click--->Build Thread
1982 CB750F
2004 ZX-10R
Spring, TX

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 07:39 #395587

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using a kz engine as a stressed member is a proven design,no problems there.
as heavily braced as his back bone is it should be very rigid.
something would have to break,and it won't.the kz engine mounts are robust to say the least.plus it has already been proven as a sound design time and again,more so in europe than here but proven none the less.
i knew you(testa)could work through it in your mind and see how it could work.

leon
skiatook,oklahoma 1980 z1r,1978 kz 1000 z1r x 3,
1976 kz 900 x 3
i make what i can,and save the rest!

billybiltit.blogspot.com/

www.kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/325862-triple-tree-custom-work

kzrider.com/forum/5-chassis/294594-frame-bracing?limitstart=0

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New project.1428 turbo or supercharged, Who knows? 02 Sep 2010 11:07 #395625

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Thanks for the positive comments.
The Zephyr frame is very strong and chunky with the main frame rails being oversize.
To help get maximum rigidity all the engine mount plates will use 10mm bolts instead of 8mm and will not be a slack fit like production stuff ( The original mounts had 11mm holes for the 10mm bolts and 9 mm for the 8mm, mine are 10.2mm for the 10's etc)
I will also bush the holes in the engine castings to remove any play.
Later in the build i will be bracing the frame within an inch of its life ( I will systematically remove all the pressed steel factory bracing and replace it with my own tubular as well as boxing in the headstock.
There is also scope for some side rails later but before all that i need to source and fit a blower and get things like the coils location sorted then work the bracing around them.

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