TOPIC:

Daftrusty wrote: ..... Maybe I will get serious and try to invent something to do just this....

You don't need to: www.amazon.ca/Lisle-36050-Keeper-Remover...taller/dp/B0012S61IO

hardrockminer wrote: What holds the valve when the keepers and springs are removed?

Push some rope or ? (I like to use plastic battery hose) into the cylinder and move the piston up in the bore. Air pressure is not required - the tool puts minimal pressure on the valve itself. You could probably get away with not stuffing the cylinder with anything - just move the piston to TDC but that would allow the valves to drop slightly making installation of the keepers more difficult (but still possible) . Stuffing something in the cylinder ensures the valves stay closer to their seats.

cb900f wrote:

Daftrusty wrote: ..... Maybe I will get serious and try to invent something to do just this....

You don't need to: www.amazon.ca/Lisle-36050-Keeper-Remover...taller/dp/B0012S61IO

That’s not the quality installation I’d consider. If I took a head into a shop and saw them installing valve springs like that I’d take my parts and run.

Mikaw wrote: That’s not the quality installation I’d consider. If I took a head into a shop and saw them installing valve springs like that I’d take my parts and run.

Any knowledgeable shop worth it's salt is using that tool because it's way, way faster than any other method and there's zero risk of loss or damage to any parts.

cb900f wrote:

Daftrusty wrote: ..... Maybe I will get serious and try to invent something to do just this....

You don't need to: www.amazon.ca/Lisle-36050-Keeper-Remover...taller/dp/B0012S61IO

NOW HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT PAST THE FRAME TUBES?

cb900f wrote:

Mikaw wrote: That’s not the quality installation I’d consider. If I took a head into a shop and saw them installing valve springs like that I’d take my parts and run.

Any knowledgeable shop worth it's salt is using that tool because it's way, way faster than any other method and there's zero risk of loss or damage to any parts.

A couple of thoughts:
1. Any reputable machine shop will never use that tool. We/they have pneumatic valve spring compressors and many purpose designed tools to remove and install springs from tiny to gigantic. Valve spring compressors are not one-size-fits-all. Smashing a valve retainer on with a hammer while the head is sitting on a bench, all the while hoping that the unsupported valve and the keepers don’t fly across the room is not the way it should be done.
That impact tool will never work reliably on tiny valve springs recessed in a bucket lifter bores anyway. I could go on for an hour about why that tool would never be found in a reputable engine machine shop, so I digress.

2. I was thinking of making a small outline compressor, designed to work in the cramped space of an engine still in the frame and on a valve recessed in a lifer bore. Something simple with as few moving parts as possible. No smashing involved.
Something along these lines...

Daftrusty wrote: .................. I was thinking of making a small outline compressor, designed to work in the cramped space of an engine still in the frame and on a valve recessed in a lifer bore. Something simple with as few moving parts as possible. No smashing involved.
Something along these lines...

Somehow your device looks quite a bit safer than smacking things with a hammer. Ed

We used tooling very similar to what Daftrusty pictured at the factory during a rework project on GPZ 600s. You definitely wanted the camchain tunnel stuffed with rags to prevent fumbled split keepers from finding their way to the oil pan!

Mike

Daftrusty wrote: Smashing a valve retainer on with a hammer while the head is sitting on a bench,

No hammer or smashing required, you can just push on the tool.

EDIT: Perhaps you'll enjoy this video more:

Daftrusty wrote: ... the unsupported valve and the keepers don’t fly across the room is not the way it should be done.

Not possible for the keeprs to 'fly across the room'

Daftrusty wrote: That impact tool will never work reliably on tiny valve springs recessed in a bucket lifter bores anyway.

Of course it works. I've used it many times on motorcycle heads with tiny valve springs recessed in bucket lifter bores[/quote].

Not sure how you're so convinced it won't work when you've obviously never used the tool before.

krazee1 wrote: ...You definitely wanted the camchain tunnel stuffed with rags to prevent fumbled split keepers from finding their way to the oil pan!

Mike

Another plus of the plunger style tool: the keepers are captured by the magnet in the tool But you're right - always stuff the cam chain tunel when the cam cover is off.

I have the 36050, but I used it on a KZ440.
It works well if you don't want to remove the heads.

Bring cylinder up to TDC. Stuff rope in the cylinder through spark plug hole and change the seals.
The tool presses down on the spring retainer just enough for the magnet inside the tool to take out the keepers.
The keepers are retained inside the tool.

I didn't use the hammer on all of them. Some I did just with hand pressure.
Once you get used to the tool, the process moves pretty quick.
First time using the tool, it took me about an hour to change 4 seals.
Not sure how different your layout is from a KZ440

Changed the seals Nov 2017. Everything is still fine.
$60 for the tool Amazon
$10 for the seals Partzilla

My guess on a shop cost would be around $200.
An hour and change at $80 per hour. Parts $30

Back in my early years working primarily on Fords we used a bent leverage arm tool for doing valve work on Pintos and Muskrat II's. Of course we had the benefit of using shop air pressure to keep the valves "up" via a leak down tester hose or compression tester hose minus the Schrader valve. The tool worked very well and Lord knows we fixed almost everyone that was sold. Talk about a junkie engine....

The Lisle valve spring tool is quite interesting to me and it is quite ingenious when you really look at it. No you don't need to go smacking it with a hammer unless you have some really strong valve springs or dual/triple valve springs. I would like to see it tried on a 900/1000 cc as I think it would work well. Some of the home brewed valve spring tools I have seen leave a little to be desired. By the way, I always gave a valve spring assembly a love tap with a plastic mallet after I installed it, even on hi-po motors to make sure the spring and keepers stayed in place. If it came apart you knew it before any engine damage was done. Every now and then the keepers just didn't seat all the way and it was an easy check.

Hey krazee1, I would have thought you factory guys were so sure-fingered from working on these bikes that you never needed things like rags jammed in the cam chain tunnels.
Rick H.