79 Z1000 pick up problems
- Stitchemup
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79 Z1000 pick up problems
04 Apr 2020 21:58
Hello ...yes i am experiencing some pickup problems ..but i will spare everyone the Dodge pickup problem i have as well as that of the female variety and i will just stick to the bike in question.
A little history (cause a little is all i got) - Its been sitting a while.
Ok now that we got that out of the way ... its rusty, its dusty. Someone or several someones attempted to 'figure it out' and get it running in the past and did a lot of wrong things to it, and not much right. I've been messing with it for a couple days now to clean it back up and put right the wiring and so on. I had found the wires to the pick up coils stripped in small 1/4" sections right where they enter the case and the cover. My guess was they missed the grommet and associated pass-through hole thus pinching the wring between case and cover and causing the wire exposure. I also found the ground leading to the IC box (and this is original Kawi electr. Ign.) Burned up all the way into the box itself. Looks as though a repair was attempted using the ol trusted and true unskilled hodgepodge style to reach an unsuccessful end. And although the 'get a bigger hammer' approach (and i currently hold a black belt in this practice) does sometimes become the method one must adopt to affect those specially delicate repairs this just isnt one of those times. They must've gave up the ghost at that point in head scratching confusion and parked it next to the pile of crushed empty beercans and other assorted projects they was gonna get to when they got some extry time. ('Marge grab me another cold one would ya? Fixin bikes is thirsty bidness!) And there it sat as the months turned to years and it became less a future project as it did an empty cold one memorial. And along comes me and says, 'Holeeeee shifter!! I hear a faint heartbeat! Quick! Rush the patient to the garage! Nurse!Prep the operatimg table stat! Prepare charge paddles! We cant waste a second!' So i jumped in to save this bike from a sure death. Whew! Any way the IC module was ground wire burnt so naturally I took it off the bike and proceeded to dig that rubbery silicone stuff out of the bottom. And i did manage after a few minutes (actual time not disclosed to eliminate the possibility of having to change my forum name to 'idggit') i was able to remove all rubbery stuff and had full access to the wiring attached to what appears to be two small discs with six pins on each. I followed that melty wire all the way to its post and found the solder joint to be loose and no other apprent problems or damaged pins . Upon further dismantling and un-soldering (again, time non disclosed) i was anble to ascertain that the ground wire solder joint appeared to be the only problem. So it was without further delay that i wired all wires back onto posts and a proffesional looking, and I was hoping, successful repair had been completed, NOT using earlier 'bigger hammer' technique i spoke of. I re-siliconed the bottom to keep things dry and snuggly and let cure. Its back on the bike and the multiple other electrical problems have been effectively repaired. I am sure some more things will pop up but they'll have to wait til theres ice on the roads. Right now putting it on the road is what matters. And i always carry a butter knife and a roll of duck tape for emergency roadside repairs so no worries! And now i still got no spark but can induce spark by passing ( more like touching the pjckup coils inducer where the timing wheel passes over). I get what looks to be pretty decent spark through the plugs. So again i am just guessing but that (although not necessarily the text bokook method for diagnostic) tells me that since i can excite the pickup to produce spark that my wiring from pickup to module is good. And also that the module itself is working and doing its job by sending its signal by way of ground to fhe coil thus collpsing the magnetic field of the secondary and releasing to travel down the ignition wire through the plug to end at the electrode and arc across where it then travels via ground back to battery thus completing its curcuit in total. Correct me if im wrong there.. But the problem is i can induce it to spark by passing a pice of steel across it but it wont produce a spark under is own cranking. Ive read a couple articles but it sure seems like the 79 80 z1000 is one that i cant get much information on. It seems i keep haveing to use information on bikes just before or just after and i dont know if that is making the difference and perhaps im using 'the wrong stuff'? Or am i missing the simple and obvious? My experience working on bikes is minimal but i do 'possess a particular set of skills' ..... at least when it comes to automotive ive been votes among one of the best. So i am able to comprehend and understand most mechanical principles AND actually apply them in the physical world.
The pickups generate their own tiny voltage as the wheels eccentric passes over the magnetized pickup correct? It then sends thatvtiny voltage to the to the IC box which then relays that signal in ground form and the coil fires....??? The ecentric on this bike looks as though its made contact with the pickup and the gap was unequal from side to side but both less than one 1mm in clearance. They are both more than .5mm and less than one now. Can the magnet that is attatched to pickup plate and is the same size as the plate and about an 1/8" thick be weakening causing the pickups to be desensatized? I could buy another pickup plate if i had the money but i just dont have the money in the toy account right now so i am having to do this with what exists on the bike. If it is a magnetic strength problem would it be fair to assume then that i could possibly just attatch an additional magnet to the pickup plate possibly re-sensatizing pickups and thus getting excited again when the wheel passes by to induce signal??..
Any advice is most welcome and i aplologize for any incorrect referencing of components and or equipment and any similarities to persons or places is purely coincedental and no reference to any actual persons or places was intended.
And i tend to get a little side tracked in telling so i appreciate your patience if you made it this far! Ride on!
A little history (cause a little is all i got) - Its been sitting a while.
Ok now that we got that out of the way ... its rusty, its dusty. Someone or several someones attempted to 'figure it out' and get it running in the past and did a lot of wrong things to it, and not much right. I've been messing with it for a couple days now to clean it back up and put right the wiring and so on. I had found the wires to the pick up coils stripped in small 1/4" sections right where they enter the case and the cover. My guess was they missed the grommet and associated pass-through hole thus pinching the wring between case and cover and causing the wire exposure. I also found the ground leading to the IC box (and this is original Kawi electr. Ign.) Burned up all the way into the box itself. Looks as though a repair was attempted using the ol trusted and true unskilled hodgepodge style to reach an unsuccessful end. And although the 'get a bigger hammer' approach (and i currently hold a black belt in this practice) does sometimes become the method one must adopt to affect those specially delicate repairs this just isnt one of those times. They must've gave up the ghost at that point in head scratching confusion and parked it next to the pile of crushed empty beercans and other assorted projects they was gonna get to when they got some extry time. ('Marge grab me another cold one would ya? Fixin bikes is thirsty bidness!) And there it sat as the months turned to years and it became less a future project as it did an empty cold one memorial. And along comes me and says, 'Holeeeee shifter!! I hear a faint heartbeat! Quick! Rush the patient to the garage! Nurse!Prep the operatimg table stat! Prepare charge paddles! We cant waste a second!' So i jumped in to save this bike from a sure death. Whew! Any way the IC module was ground wire burnt so naturally I took it off the bike and proceeded to dig that rubbery silicone stuff out of the bottom. And i did manage after a few minutes (actual time not disclosed to eliminate the possibility of having to change my forum name to 'idggit') i was able to remove all rubbery stuff and had full access to the wiring attached to what appears to be two small discs with six pins on each. I followed that melty wire all the way to its post and found the solder joint to be loose and no other apprent problems or damaged pins . Upon further dismantling and un-soldering (again, time non disclosed) i was anble to ascertain that the ground wire solder joint appeared to be the only problem. So it was without further delay that i wired all wires back onto posts and a proffesional looking, and I was hoping, successful repair had been completed, NOT using earlier 'bigger hammer' technique i spoke of. I re-siliconed the bottom to keep things dry and snuggly and let cure. Its back on the bike and the multiple other electrical problems have been effectively repaired. I am sure some more things will pop up but they'll have to wait til theres ice on the roads. Right now putting it on the road is what matters. And i always carry a butter knife and a roll of duck tape for emergency roadside repairs so no worries! And now i still got no spark but can induce spark by passing ( more like touching the pjckup coils inducer where the timing wheel passes over). I get what looks to be pretty decent spark through the plugs. So again i am just guessing but that (although not necessarily the text bokook method for diagnostic) tells me that since i can excite the pickup to produce spark that my wiring from pickup to module is good. And also that the module itself is working and doing its job by sending its signal by way of ground to fhe coil thus collpsing the magnetic field of the secondary and releasing to travel down the ignition wire through the plug to end at the electrode and arc across where it then travels via ground back to battery thus completing its curcuit in total. Correct me if im wrong there.. But the problem is i can induce it to spark by passing a pice of steel across it but it wont produce a spark under is own cranking. Ive read a couple articles but it sure seems like the 79 80 z1000 is one that i cant get much information on. It seems i keep haveing to use information on bikes just before or just after and i dont know if that is making the difference and perhaps im using 'the wrong stuff'? Or am i missing the simple and obvious? My experience working on bikes is minimal but i do 'possess a particular set of skills' ..... at least when it comes to automotive ive been votes among one of the best. So i am able to comprehend and understand most mechanical principles AND actually apply them in the physical world.
The pickups generate their own tiny voltage as the wheels eccentric passes over the magnetized pickup correct? It then sends thatvtiny voltage to the to the IC box which then relays that signal in ground form and the coil fires....??? The ecentric on this bike looks as though its made contact with the pickup and the gap was unequal from side to side but both less than one 1mm in clearance. They are both more than .5mm and less than one now. Can the magnet that is attatched to pickup plate and is the same size as the plate and about an 1/8" thick be weakening causing the pickups to be desensatized? I could buy another pickup plate if i had the money but i just dont have the money in the toy account right now so i am having to do this with what exists on the bike. If it is a magnetic strength problem would it be fair to assume then that i could possibly just attatch an additional magnet to the pickup plate possibly re-sensatizing pickups and thus getting excited again when the wheel passes by to induce signal??..
Any advice is most welcome and i aplologize for any incorrect referencing of components and or equipment and any similarities to persons or places is purely coincedental and no reference to any actual persons or places was intended.
And i tend to get a little side tracked in telling so i appreciate your patience if you made it this far! Ride on!
KZ1000E or any bike as long as its fast!
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- 650ed
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Re: 79 Z1000 pick up problems
05 Apr 2020 05:10
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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- loudhvx
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Re: 79 Z1000 pick up problems
05 Apr 2020 09:26 - 05 Apr 2020 12:16
There are a couple Kz1000 ignition/pickup discussions going right now, and both are spread across multiple topics so i'll try to remember which is which. Forgive me if I get them mixed up.
In case you haven't seen it, this link will show how to assemble the pickup-plate correctly and get the magnet polarity correct. If someone took it apart and reassembled the magnets improperly, the signal from the pickups will be weak or at the wrong time.
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/Ignition/PickupA.../PickupAndRotor.html
Another reason you might not get sparks, besides the pickups being assembled wrong could be the signal the igniter gives to the pickups. It's often necessary for the igniter to apply a steady DC bias signal to the pickups. If the igniter is not doing that, you may still get spark from hitting the pickups or somehow inducing a signal that is high enough to overcome the inadequate bias.
Unfortunately, I don't have one of the first igniters found on the 79 models. They are meant to function like the later ones, but may use a different bias level. So I can't say what voltage you might see on the pickups, relative to ground.
But you can make a measurement. I would expect the voltage on the blue pickup wire to be about the same as the voltage on the red pickup wire. It's even possible they will both be zero. But I don't think they should be significantly different.
The FSM will have specs for the pickups in terms of resistance, so you can check that. I've found various pickups from different years can have significant differences in resistance, so make sure yours are in the same range as that in the manual, and are in the same range as each other. As long as they are close, they should provide enough signal to get spark.
As mentioned above the igniter may provide a DC voltage bias on the pickup, and then the pickup will produce an AC pulse on top of that to signal a spark. The magnet-polarity page will show how to see the polarity of the signal and you can see if both pickups produce about the same size pulse for a given movement of metal.
In case you haven't seen it, this link will show how to assemble the pickup-plate correctly and get the magnet polarity correct. If someone took it apart and reassembled the magnets improperly, the signal from the pickups will be weak or at the wrong time.
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/Ignition/PickupA.../PickupAndRotor.html
Another reason you might not get sparks, besides the pickups being assembled wrong could be the signal the igniter gives to the pickups. It's often necessary for the igniter to apply a steady DC bias signal to the pickups. If the igniter is not doing that, you may still get spark from hitting the pickups or somehow inducing a signal that is high enough to overcome the inadequate bias.
Unfortunately, I don't have one of the first igniters found on the 79 models. They are meant to function like the later ones, but may use a different bias level. So I can't say what voltage you might see on the pickups, relative to ground.
But you can make a measurement. I would expect the voltage on the blue pickup wire to be about the same as the voltage on the red pickup wire. It's even possible they will both be zero. But I don't think they should be significantly different.
The FSM will have specs for the pickups in terms of resistance, so you can check that. I've found various pickups from different years can have significant differences in resistance, so make sure yours are in the same range as that in the manual, and are in the same range as each other. As long as they are close, they should provide enough signal to get spark.
As mentioned above the igniter may provide a DC voltage bias on the pickup, and then the pickup will produce an AC pulse on top of that to signal a spark. The magnet-polarity page will show how to see the polarity of the signal and you can see if both pickups produce about the same size pulse for a given movement of metal.
1981 KZ550 D1 gpz.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Last edit: 05 Apr 2020 12:16 by loudhvx.
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