TOPIC:

Normally you don't want the heater to warm up before starting the motor.  If initial water droplets hit an already hot heater it can damage it. The Innovate manual should have that warning.  But you do have to heat the heater for some of the calibrations (without starting the motor immediately afterward).

Normally, they want the sensor heater to turn on when the motor starts.  So maybe you will have more voltage when the bike is idling?
If so, then you'd only need an extra battery boost for calibration functions.

I use the LC-1 and have never had a voltage problem during calibration or warmup even with dual headlights, but I think the LM-2 is a different beast.

The unit worked fine with the headlight disconnected. And yes, I probably won't have a problem with the headlight on after startup and the alternator turning. If that's the case I do only need a charger for calibration.

This was a big day for me guys. First ride after spending two years building this engine. Everything is looking good! Just gotta tune.

Anyone have experience tuning Keihin FlatSlides (FCR35s)? Got an oddball mixture senario right off the bat. 

Have you looked at mixtures with a wide an before? The results can be confusing at first, and almost appear random. It takes a little while to intuitively interpret what's happening. Do you have a real time gauge so you can see the afr as you ride? That helps make sense of things.

loudhvx wrote: Do you have a real time gauge so you can see the afr as you ride? That helps make sense of things.

The  lm-2  displays real time. AFR on the screen as well as any other info depending on whats connected to it, like rpm

VTEC  are you going to use its data logging ability's at all

Wozza wrote:

loudhvx wrote: Do you have a real time gauge so you can see the afr as you ride? That helps make sense of things.

The  lm-2  displays real time. AFR on the screen as well as any other info depending on whats connected to it, like rpm

VTEC  are you going to use its data logging ability's at all

You can see in the picture I have the unit strapped to the handlebars, and I also hooked up the analog RPM input. I'll use the datalogger for main jet setting at WOT. Otherwise it would be like texting over 100mph. Other than WOT I'll just view the readings while riding.

First startup I had to go down to 1/2 a turn on the screws to get 14s at idle, at the same time I was low 13s at 1/8 throttle about 2500 to 3500 RPM. But this was in neutral, no load.

Since I know readings will be richer under load, I went 1 down on the PFJ.

Warmed it up again and with the 45 PFJ I had to go 2.5 turns on the screws to get high 13s at idle. On the road, 1/8 throttle in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear I was getting mid-12s.

So, I'm a tad lean at idle, and way rich off-idle. And before anyone asks, there are no vacuum leaks.

Patrick Burns did a great article on FCR tuning: www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_tuning_proc...g_FCR_Burns,Pat.html

The PFJ has major effect at idle and less off-idle. The PAJ is the opposite; major off-idle, minor at idle. 

So my plan is to go back to the 48 PFJ (richin up idle), and two steps lean on the PAJ. Hoping to considerably lean off-idle and either not effect or hopefully richin a little at idle. Still up in the air, but may also go one groove lean on the needles since they also have an effect beginning at 1/8 throttle. 

Done this before, but what an advantage seeing air/fuel in real-time as opposed to going by feel, plugs, or a million trips to the dyno.

Any input on my plan is always helpful. Thanks. 

Sorry I meant an analog gauge.  For harsh throttle transitions it's nice to be able to see how fast and far the afr swings without having to stare at the gauge.  But since you can datalog, it won't be as critical.  I found with some jetting the afr needle could swing as low 8 for a very brief moment.  That tends to be a little too rich for cracking the throttle.  I'm not sure you would see this with a digital readout, and I think it's harder to see how fast the afr recovers etc. by looking at some numbers showing up briefly.

Normally I aim for 12 at idle after it's warmed up.
Then I aim for about 14 to 14.3 at the leanest during steady cruise between 1/16 and 1/8 throttle.  Normally the lean range will be off idle to about 3/16 throttle.  By 1/4 or 3/8 all the way out to full, I like it to be back down to about 13.  That is, when the throttle is held steady at any position above 1/4 or 3/8 when the RPMs come up to their max, the afr will steadily increase then hold at about 13, maybe up to 13.5 at the most.

In my experience, on the 550 with TK22 carbs, it's always been about precisely shimming the needle to get the cruise-to-power afr transition in the right place.  Then setting the other things accordingly.  Everything can have an effect on other things, so it's sometimes a compromise.  There is also more than one way to get a proper jetting combination, since different tradeoffs can be made.

By ending up at 13, it means the mixture sweeps through the 12's as the RPMs increase.  So as the RPMs increase the mixture sweeps through the afr's for best power.  So with opening the throttle pretty good, I like to see the afr sweep drop down to 10 or 11, and then sweep up to about 13 or 13.5.  

Different carbs/motors may prefer slightly different numbers.  With pods, due to tubulence and crosswinds, I find you can't get the lean-cruise area as steady so it's safer to go a bit richer, like high 13's.  The power range target is still the same. 

loudhvx wrote: Sorry I meant an analog gauge.  For harsh throttle transitions it's nice to be able to see how fast and far the afr swings without having to stare at the gauge.  But since you can datalog, it won't be as critical.  I found with some jetting the afr needle could swing as low 8 for a very brief moment.  That tends to be a little too rich for cracking the throttle.  I'm not sure you would see this with a digital readout, and I think it's harder to see how fast the afr recovers etc. by looking at some numbers showing up briefly.

Normally I aim for 12 at idle after it's warmed up.
Then I aim for about 14 to 14.3 at the leanest during steady cruise between 1/16 and 1/8 throttle.  Normally the lean range will be off idle to about 3/16 throttle.  By 1/4 or 3/8 all the way out to full, I like it to be back down to about 13.  That is, when the throttle is held steady at any position above 1/4 or 3/8 when the RPMs come up to their max, the afr will steadily increase then hold at about 13, maybe up to 13.5 at the most.

In my experience, on the 550 with TK22 carbs, it's always been about precisely shimming the needle to get the cruise-to-power afr transition in the right place.  Then setting the other things accordingly.  Everything can have an effect on other things, so it's sometimes a compromise.  There is also more than one way to get a proper jetting combination, since different tradeoffs can be made.

By ending up at 13, it means the mixture sweeps through the 12's as the RPMs increase.  So as the RPMs increase the mixture sweeps through the afr's for best power.  So with opening the throttle pretty good, I like to see the afr sweep drop down to 10 or 11, and then sweep up to about 13 or 13.5.  

Different carbs/motors may prefer slightly different numbers.  With pods, due to tubulence and crosswinds, I find you can't get the lean-cruise area as steady so it's safer to go a bit richer, like high 13's.  The power range target is still the same. 

Never heard twelves at idle, but I'll add that to the equation based on idle strength regardless of afr. 

I'm running FCR35s. Biggest difference compared to most carbs is there is no vacuum diaphragm. Meaning when you twist the throttle, there's no load-relevant piston to limit incoming air according to load. It's all in the wrist. You cannot just go WOT abruptly. You have to do it gradually like the load sensitive piston typically compensates for on other carbs. The other thing is the accelerator pump. You can't accept afr after twisting the throttle. You have to wait for the pump-shot to burn up to view the true ratio at that throttle position. 

I'm trying to focus on a steady throttle position, rpm, and load for jetting. While being consistent with the rate of acceleration while riding.  

I think it's kind of an art learning to ride with these carbs, but supposedly the ultimate in performance (outside of injection) when you get it right.    

All of the testing I've done is with mechanical slide carbs as well, and like you said, they require a little more throttle control skill than CV carbs.  Honestly, I don't what a CV carb would behave like on a wideband (relative to a mechanical slide carb).

When I do the testing I get ham-fisted on the throttle to simulate worst-case scenarios.  It's possible to open the throttle fast enough to stall the motor, but I don't go that far.  I usually try to simulate a reasonable fast throttle opening.  One thing about mechanical carbs is that you can sort of feel tension in the throttle based on engine vacuum.  If you open too fast the tension suddenly drops, and you know you've opened too fast.  I find if I roll it just ahead of the highest amount of tension, I get the best acceleration and the AFR stays in the power band (approx 11.5 to 13.5).  But I will usually test a little faster opening than that just to check limits.    So if opening gets too rich, like down below 10, you can just simply open more slowly.  So there is a point where you need to determine what you think a reasonable opening rate for the throttle would be. 

I think the throttle tension is based on the vacuum pulling the slide sideways and creating friction between the slide and the wall of the slide tube.



The classic value for idle AFR is probably around 13.2 ish.  That is the approx value you get when you use the old fashioned lean-drop method of setting idle mixture (using only a precision tachometer).  I have an old EGA that shows that to be the target for idle mixture.  But this is meant for liquid-cooled, large car engines.  I've found on the air-cooled smaller engines like the 550, slightly richer is better. 

There is a range of AFR where you get best power, and probably won't notice much difference in power within that range. The peak is more of an arc. The peak of the arc is at 12.5, but the peak is wide and dropoff is gradual.  When you use the lean-drop method you are setting for fastest idle speed coming from the lean direction.  That ends up somewhere near 13.2. 

If you set the mixture on an average day, the mixture AFR will be richer on a hot day, and leaner on a cold day.  The 550's were very cold blooded from the factory, so I set it richer to come off choke sooner, and also to reduce the idle-speed climb as the engine warms up.  If you set it richer, you get a higher idle when cold, and as it warms up, the idle does not climb as much.  There is a down-side, though, and that is when you get a 100 deg day, the idle can actually decrease as the motor warms up to full temp.  In that case, I just bump up the idle speed, which opens the throttle, and sets the slide into a leaner position.  (The AFR should go leaner from idle up to about 1/16 or 1/8 throttle).  12 might be too rich if you live in a hot climate or maybe even on a larger motor like a 1000. I suspect larger motors have less idle-speed climb as they warm up.  If you are setting it on a relatively cooler day (70deg or lower), then 13 or even 13.5 might be good.  On a hot day the AFR reading will probably end up near 12.

Much leaner idle (14  or 15)  can be had with closed-loop fuel injection, but you will never really pull that off with carbs.