TOPIC:

Hello, I've recently purchased a 1989 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 to supplement my recently (re)purchased KZ400.

Well the Ninja has a charging system thats troubling me. Both the Regulator and the Rectifier have gone bad and the charging system - of course - does not work.

I've spent a good amount of time on Lou's site (LoudHVX) and it's given me some ideas.

My plan is to use a 4 wire (with chassis ground) Ford External voltage regulator. This regulator can be viewed on the link below

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Ford-Lincoln...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have two problems

1.) The regulator output may be incompatible with the field coil resistance in my alternator
2.) I do not know how to make a rectifier with an auxilary out - which - I believe - is utilized by the ford external voltage regulator and I suspect most automotive external voltage regulators.


So I need some way of confirming that the regulator output will be compatible with the field coil resistance in my alternator (I can add resistors, too)

And I need to know how to build a rectifier with an aux out.

Lou's site goes over how to make a rectifier without an aux out - and I suspect that a modification to include the aux out will not be too tough.

HELP!

Peter

A wiring diagram for the ford alternator
www.americanstreetmasters.com/Wiring_101_15.jpg

Am I correct that the S (stator) is the what Lou would call an "aux out"?

newbikekiller wrote:

A wiring diagram for the ford alternator
www.americanstreetmasters.com/Wiring_101_15.jpg

Am I correct that the S (stator) is the what Lou would call an "aux out"?

I can't be sure (due to lack of info on that page), but I don't believe it is. Nor would I suspect it to be likely.

What I call the "aux" line goes from the rectifier to the regulator. It is concievable the Ford alternator has a special tap on the stator to power the field, but it is more likely for something else.

newbikekiller wrote:

Hello, I've recently purchased a 1989 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 to supplement my recently (re)purchased KZ400.

Well the Ninja has a charging system thats troubling me. Both the Regulator and the Rectifier have gone bad and the charging system - of course - does not work.

I've spent a good amount of time on Lou's site (LoudHVX) and it's given me some ideas.

My plan is to use a 4 wire (with chassis ground) Ford External voltage regulator. This regulator can be viewed on the link below

link

I have two problems

1.) The regulator output may be incompatible with the field coil resistance in my alternator
2.) I do not know how to make a rectifier with an auxilary out - which - I believe - is utilized by the ford external voltage regulator and I suspect most automotive external voltage regulators.


So I need some way of confirming that the regulator output will be compatible with the field coil resistance in my alternator (I can add resistors, too)

And I need to know how to build a rectifier with an aux out.

Lou's site goes over how to make a rectifier without an aux out - and I suspect that a modification to include the aux out will not be too tough.

HELP!

Peter

You are correct, adding an aux out is just a matter of adding 3 diodes. But (there's always a "but" isn't there ), you need to know some details about your charging system before you can select modify it.

You are in the category of excited-field alternators, and they come in many flavors. Essentially, you need to know these things:

1) What is the DC resistance of the field coil?
(In your case, this will also include the resistance of the brushes and slip rings.) This will let you determione the maximum current the regulator will have to control.

2) Which end of the field coil is regulated?
That means does the regulator control the ground of the field coil while the positive side gets full battery voltage, or does the regulator control the positive side while the other end stays grounded all the time.
If both ends are fully isolated from ground, and you are going to design the rest of the system, you can decide how the field will be powered to suit your needs.

3) How many AC taps are coming off the stator?
Many times there are extra taps off the stator for various purposes. You need to identify the 3 main phase wires.

4) Since the regulator and rectifier were built in, you need to be able to identify, isolate, and connect to the wires for the alternator while the reg and rec are disconnected and/or removed. The minimum is the 3 output wires from the stator, and one or both wires from the field.

Since you are selecting the Ford regulator, you need to also identify all of the above for the Ford system. This can take time since car charging systems can be far more complex. Often, in cars, the alternator is used by fuel injection or engine computers to determine if the car is actually running etc. This adds a lot of wires in unexpected ways.

If your field coil resistance is in the 4 ohm range, you can probably use components from www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com

Or you can try to build this one (which you've probably seen). It also shows the difference between the aux-out rectifier and the non-aux rectifier. There is a diagram at the top and one at the end of the page.
www.geocities.com/loudgpz/GPZvRegExciteField.html

By the way, use the quote feature on this post to see how I made your link smaller so it won't affect the layout of the screen.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/09/26 21:40

Loud, you are a genius!

The great thing about the Ford setup, is that they went to an internally regulated alternator about the same time they started using EFI... So their externally regulated alternators were wired in pretty simply.

Easiest way to get the specs for your resistances on the Ford side would probably be via a Ford EVTM manual.
I used to have some old ones, but you might be able to source it on the internet or my local guys let me look at theirs if I get in a bind.

I would think you would want something like a mid 80's F150. I seem to remember those had a real bare bones setup. Just make sure you're looking at the 60A alternators, and not the 100A since they may have different values.

Could you pull the diodes and heat sinks out of a 60A
automotive alternator and remote mount them with the regulator? You would then have a matched set, and just be using the field and armature out of the motorcycle, right? Just thinking out loud... I may be full of it, my eyes are brown...

Best of luck!

Ford wiring diagram:

www.fordification.com/wiring.htm

Post edited by: jjdwoodman, at: 2007/09/26 23:08

jjdwoodman wrote:

Ford wiring diagram:

www.fordification.com/wiring.htm
<br><br>Post edited by: jjdwoodman, at: 2007/09/26 23:08

Unfortunately, there are too many errors on those circuits to be able to identify the wires coming from the alternator. I checked the 1969 350, 1970 250, and 1970 350 diagrams and they clearly have errors (and contradictions from one to the other) on the charging systems.

But, there is no "Aux" tap from the integral-rectifier to the external-regulator on the Ford system. The extra "stator" wire is a tap directly to the center of the wye connection on the stator. Not sure what it would be used for since the diagrams don't really show what it's connected to. (Only one diagram shows the wire and it's not clear where it goes since there are errors in that specific area.)

Either way, the Ninja alternator does not have a tap to the center of the wye, so you could not use that connection on the regulator. If it was clear what the purpose was, it could possibly be ignored.

One major issue, however, is that car regulators tend to regulate too high for motorcycle batteries. I usually see cars in the 15 to 15.5 range. That's too high for bike batteries. The KZ's like to be around 14 to 14.5v.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/09/27 09:56

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/10/02 12:01

Since you don't want an OEM replacement
and want to develope your own,Radio Shack
has many how to do books and the transistors
etc. to build one from scratch.Most of the
projects from there have worked for me.Dc
motor controls (Bipolar transistors),and
ac controls (Triacs),have been fun and useful
projects.

IIRC the Ford specs for regulators is 13.4 to 14.0.

I also don't think my 78 F250 had the S wire hooked up and it still charged. It's been a while though, so I'm not completely sure on that. I'll try to research that point though, (there's an 84 in the yard right now) and get back to let you know.

Let me first respond to Lou's message.

+Firstly I have already removed the regulator and rectifier and examined the unit.I identified the three stator wires and two connections for the field coil, these are the only connections remaining with the voltage regulator and rectifier removed. I have also noted that the (-) output of the field coil is switched from the stock regulator.

+DC resistance of the field coil - can I simply place on ohmmeter across the two connections for the carbon brushes while the carbon brushes are connected to the alternator? If this is higher than that of the Ford system I should be OK, right? Seeing as the ford alternator likely outputs more, wouldn't it's field coil probably have less resistance? I will check this value just to make sure, however.

+In regards to the high voltage. Yes this is something I considered. Well I might be up to 1v off (the original design charges from 13.5-14.5v I might see as high as 15.5v), but I suspect that the $60 optima battery the previous owner will be able to handle it. Even if it fries it's not a big deal, I'm more worried about my ignition components getting damaged in the process. I'll take a final voltage reading when I'm done and see how it works out.

+The Negative end of the field coil WAS regulated by the voltage regulator. Now I figure, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I get a voltage regulator that outputs (+) (which I have) I can simply ground the other end of the field coil and hook it up like that. I mean, presumably its just a regular coil (like the kind I learned about in Physics Class) and it doesn't care what end is switched just that it's getting current in the right direction - which I will ensure.

+Let's discuss the STATOR connection in the below message.

Now to jjdwoodman
-You are correct, the ford setup wiring is quite simple and the wiring diagram I posted corresponds directly with what I see on the online add and also what I've seen in the auto parts store.

I've considered pulling the rectifier from an automobile and using that, but considering the hassle of this and the low cost of the rectifier components (probably $15 total) I have decided to build my own.

Post edited by: newbikekiller, at: 2007/09/27 22:08

Ok this voltage regulator provides two possible connections, allow me to clarify:

Here is connection 1:
For use with an in-dash voltmeter (which I will be installing and I will be using this configuration)

(F) terminal at the regulator goes to Field at Alternator center rear terminal

(S) terminal at the regulator goes to ignition swith, powered by 12 volts to turn the regulator on with the ignition key.

(A+) terminal at the regulator (yellow wire) from battery positive.

(I) terminal not used at the regulator in this configuration

(CASE) Ground
Here is the second configuration:
This is for an idiot lamp and I will not be using this:

(F) terminal at the regulator goes to the alternator (white wire)

(S) terminal at the regulator goes to the alternator (white/ blk str)
this wire turns the regulator on at a high rpm when the low rpm portion is not functioning. (????)

(A+) terminal at the regulator goes to Battery positive, (yellow)

(I) terminal goes to charge indicator light to the ignition switch. There is also a 15 ohm resistor bypassing the indicator light just in case the light blows out to let the power still go through to the (I) terminal at the regulator. (green/red stripe)this wire turns the alternator on at a low rpm.

I think I have what I need. All warnings aside, I'm going to check the field coil resistance and try this.

Hopefully I don't blow up. I will put a voltmeter on and tell you all how this works out.

Thank you!