what are 'Bad Igniter' symptoms?

if i were you, i would check fuel pressure. it the only constance in the equation 5psi x pulse width x air flow rate . not uncommon pump motor get tired causing psi to vary.

Motor Head wrote:

Now you're getting somewhere. If you think that it was the fuel when it died, did you still have your petcock to "Run", with the long pick-up tube failing to get gas maybe? I think I would Tee into the fuel line and install a gauge to watch fuel pressure. Also a test light of sorts hooked across the pump wires to find if either gos away when it dies next.
Does it still Idle rough and surge? Hesitate on take off, and the other symptoms you had?

After fixing the kinked fuel hose, I filled it to the top of the gas tank right before I set out today. The petcock was on 'Run' and not 'reserve.'

And when the bike died at the stoplight I immediately hit the start button and it was right back to the 'keep it revved high or it will die', popping-and-backfiring problem and I immediately shut off the ignition, and pushed it to the side of the road. On the side of the road I pulled the left side cover off and turned the bike on to ensure the fuel pump was pulling fuel into the filter and it was, bigtime. Side cover back on, I'm on the road with nary a hiccup for the 15-minute ride home. Total downtime about 30 seconds, not enough time for anything to cool off.

And today the idle was a bit up-and-down sometimes, and sometimes idling with no hiccup whatsoever at a stable 1300 rpm. Not running rough, although I'm still pretty sure the throttle bodies are not in sync.

enaz1 wrote:

if i were you, i would check fuel pressure. it the only constance in the equation 5psi x pulse width x air flow rate . not uncommon pump motor get tired causing psi to vary.

Checking the fuel pressure is in my map of things to do when I start testing the FI system. I'm going to check that one first because it's pretty easy. Some of the steps, such as checking one of the relays, is involved, requiring a 12v power source, "a 3.2 watt light bulb" and sheesh. It's a long list of things to do.

EDIT: want carbs...NOW!

Ok as we discussed before, the fuel pump and relay, pressure test should be conducted. Now I believe that the pump relay will be energized by the EFI Controller, but it needs to see Ignition signal, like a Tack to do this. This means when the engine stalls the pump will shut down even with the key on. So if the relay is failing, very likely, or if there is a bad connection between ignition and EFI controller, Controller to relay. Did you get a manual with the correct wiring diagram? If so you should see which wire will latch the relay.
I believe the main fuse as well as others could be a problem as well, didn't you check contact and voltages in the fuse panel? Did you replace those OLD AGX fuses? They may look OK but often they disconnect right at the cap when hot. Hooking some sort of test light onto the system, where you want to check for voltage as it intermittently fails might help you.
You can get a small pack of 12v LED lights at Radio Shack, build a small board to attach up on the bars with some wiring going to the circuits, label the different color lights, then when it quits or stumbles bad you might get a good indication of loss of voltage.
Much easier on newer stuff, they spit out codes! The old stuff takes old methods!
Try this at Radio Shack:
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?pro...=2062588#tabsetBasic

As known, ignition coils receive switched battery positive voltage from the positive battery terminal.

The wiring from battery is likely through a fuse, then through the ignition switch, then through the kill switch, then to the ignition coils.

There are several connectors along the way that might be loose or corroded and causing intermittent loss of voltage to both coils, simultaneously, whereby engine suddenly dies. (akin to switching off the ignition or turning the kill switch to off).
Could be similar result from corrosion or wear inside the ignition switch and/or kill switch.

There is probably a dual connector from a single harness wire (under the fuel tank) -- maybe a red wire or red/yellow wire -- and each coil receives batt+ voltage from the dual connector.

If not already done, would verify integrity of each connector and switch and clips on the inline fuse.

Also verify integrity of connection where negative battery cable attaches to rear of engine.

Good Fortune!

Thanks MH and Patton, so here's what I just did. Still pretty warm right now in Silicon Valley at 6:30pm, around 60 degrees so I took her for a spin (before that I pulled the drain plug from the black plastic box between the 4 throttle bodies and the air flow sensor and air filter -- the black plastic collector with 4 holes on the carb side and one big hole for the air filter etc.)

I thought maybe the prior owner overfilled the bike with oil once -- and the oil breather is connected with a 1.5" long hose to this black carb collector box, same as on other kz's. (happened to me on my '78 kz1000A2, got into the intake tract)

Hoping to find it with oil inside, maybe oil is randomly splashing on the throttle position sensor which is just next to it on the left side. Pulled the drain plug, no oil in the box. Real bastard to get the rubber drain plug out then back in, supposed to be that way to keep the intake tract airtight.

NEXT.

I checked the easy-to-get-at bullet connectors and for each one, I grasped both ends and twisted to get the bullet to make contact with its sheath. Did that on both sides of the bike behind the side covers.

And when I started her up after that, the bike was STUCK in "Keep me revved over 3000rpm" mode.

I ignored it and got on the road. Yep, it's running bad again, have to keep it over 3000rpm or engine dies.

Pulled into the McDonalds down my street under a light in the parking lot. I pulled both side covers, fuel pump working CHECK, hit the start button and fuel flows from the gas tank into the filter bigtime. I again wiggled wires, checked the fuses, on the white molex connectors I didn't separate them but moved the 2 sides of each connector in and out a bit to try and get better contact. No change, will not run unless I gun her a lot. Let off the throttle, the engine sounds like it's either getting no gas or no spark. The sound is like what you hear if you turn the handlebar On/Off switch to Off. Only difference is -- she'll run if I keep the revs up.

I limped her home and what's interesting is the bike when I parked earlier today was FINE. Then now at 6:30pm it is in '3000rpm or else' mode from the time I started it till limped home 10 minutes later. It was dead cold when I started it.

I'm hoping she'll be in 'bad mode' tomorrow morning in my driveway, maybe the wiggle test will find something.

My guess is -- there is a REALLY IFFY connection somewhere. Have you ever have an electrical situation where one strand of a multi-strand copper wire was all that was keeping a circuit active? Something like that is what I've got here. Electrical components to my knowledge are go/no go most of the time. This is probably a wire bent back and forth too many times, or a bad connector.

Based on your advice I will first focus on the main power from battery around the bike, through the fuse panel, ignition switch and handlebar On/Off.

I have already installed new fuses several days ago.

I think though the electrical problem is going to be related to the FI wiring harness -- if the bike's 12volt main power wiring was the problem, my lights would go off when the engine stalls out. And that's not happening, the lights stay on, and turn signals work, the start button works, the dashboard lights (oil, brake indicator) still work after the engine conks out.

I think after checking the main power loop on the bike I'm going to follow my map of things to check in the electrical part of the FI system -- relay, air flow sensor, temp sensor, throttle position sensor switch, etc. -- I will probably find a bad connection in the FI wiring harness.

The prior owner spent some time amongst the wiring, something he was very forthright about before I bought it. It is obvious that he did, because a few of the FI wires are hanging too loosely on the left side, pretty sure they were tucked up really neatly and not dangling like now.

Probably a frayed multistrand copper wire or a wire with a break inside, and the 2 ends of the wire at the break are still close to each other, held by the insulation, so that contact is made *sometimes.* Something like that.

You can check the whole harness for continuity with a DVOM. Might even have a Sound Feature or Beep, when connected.
Also installing a test light in a loop with the wire circuit to test supplying voltage through the wire and light back to ground. Then with the light glowing you can pull and twist, if it blinks, pull a bit more and it will go out= broken wire, or short to ground. Works fantastic and puts some AMPs through the wire, instead of a trickle like the DVOM.

Okay I spent several hours checking:

1) The coils:
coil #1 for cylinders 1 and 4:
- primary = 1.9 ohms
- secondary = 14,930 ohms
- primary to the core of the coil = infinite ohms on highest meter setting;
- samey-same with the secondary of the coil (plug caps removed as per the manual for this check), infinite ohms

coil #2 for cylinders 2 and 3:
primary = 1.9 ohms
secondary = 15,030 ohms
- primary to the core of the coil = infinite ohms on highest meter setting;
- samey-same with the secondary of the coil (plug caps removed as per the manual for this check), infinite ohms


PROGNOSIS: coil secondaries are high a bit, supposed to be 'about' 13,500 ohms per my Clymer book



2) Coil Resistor (it's on a plate in front of the 2 coils):
- it reads about 1.8 ohms, which is close to spec

PROGNOSIS: coil resistor seems okay.


3) The electronic ignition pickups (right side of crank behind cover)
- right side pickup (yellow and red wires) = 485 ohms
- left side pickup (blue and black wires) = 460 ohms

PROGNOSIS: supposed to read 450 to 500 ohms, they are fine.


4) Inductive timing light test
When my timing light flashes, here's what I see:


PROGNOSIS: Why is the timing 'not adjustable'.
It's not adjustable according to the manual.
Because although the 'T' mark is at the left edge of
the oval that has the vertical line for lining up the timing mark -- I'd like to adjust the timing so that the 'T' mark lines up with that vertical line, not to the left of it. All 4 cylinders are the same.


5) AIR FLOW SENSOR CHECK
- the Clymer manual says:
1) "set the meter on Rx100 ohms"
2) "manually move the flapper inside the air flow sensor box from fully closed to fully open"
3) "and the resistance should never be zero, and should never be infinite, but should read between 350 to 400 ohms"

I'm assuming that "should read 35,000 to 40,000 ohms" because on the Rx100 scale, when the meter display reads '350' it is 350 * 100 = 35,000 ohms.

PROGNOSIS: the flow meter is fine, I get a range of 35k to 40k ohms as I move the flapper by hand.



6) I then
- cleaned all the visible connectors around the FI part of the wiring harness using electronic contact cleaner (spray can)

- removed the computer and disconnected it and cleaned its large connector with a toothbrush and electronic contact cleaner (spray can)

- unplugged, inspected, then reconnected all the single 'bullet + sheath" individual wires

- checked the charging voltage across my battery -- 14.5 volts and higher at just over 2000rpm


DANG BIKE STILL RUNS LIKE A 3-LEGGED DOG. NO A 2-LEGGED DOG WITH ITS HIND LEGS (REMNANTS OF THE HIND LEGS ANYWAY) on one of them jury-rigged dog 1/2 wheelchair.
Will not run under 3k and pops and backfires.

I did find a 4 inch long 'curb crack' on the bottom of the muffler section on the Kerker pipe. I dont think it makes a difference.



I found that the electrical connectors for injectors #1, #2 and #3 are missing the metal clip that prevents the connector from coming free from the injector body.

Over time without their metal retaining clips, the electrical connectors on the 3 injectors for cylinders 1, 2 and 3 have been subjected to movement due to vibration etc. and these 3 connectors are FAR from 'snug.'

I'm thinking that tomorrow I have to take a look at the electrical connector sockets on the injector bodies of cylinders 1, 2 and 3 to see if I cant bend the sheaths out a bit inside the connector sockets so the injector plugs have a tighter fit, otherwise the connectors for these 3 injectors *might* be intermittently losing contact.

Only the electrical connector on injector #4 has a 'snug' feeling to it -- mostly because (I reckon) its metal retaining clip has prevented the connector from moving around and wearing down the connector socket on the injector body over time.

will I ever buy another FI bike NO

So some of those connectors have been working around on those Injectors? Probably like throwing a Hot Dog down a hallway. If you can tighten those pins up, while your there I suggest again you at least OHM the Injectors if not taking them out for a "Pattern" check as well. Did you check fuel pump pressure? On the Air flow Sensor, did you also OHM the Air Temp Sensor, what about the engine Temp Sensor under the Throttle body area?
What about the throttle Switch? That sucker could be your problem, and if the Idle speed screw has been adjusted, then this needs to be set as well.
The timing light was not just for checking the timing but also to look at the flashing light to see if the Ignition was breaking down, kind of a poor mans scope.

Motor Head wrote:

So some of those connectors have been working around on those Injectors? Probably like throwing a Hot Dog down a hallway. If you can tighten those pins up, while your there I suggest again you at least OHM the Injectors if not taking them out for a "Pattern" check as well. Did you check fuel pump pressure? On the Air flow Sensor, did you also OHM the Air Temp Sensor, what about the engine Temp Sensor under the Throttle body area?
What about the throttle Switch? That sucker could be your problem, and if the Idle speed screw has been adjusted, then this needs to be set as well.
The timing light was not just for checking the timing but also to look at the flashing light to see if the Ignition was breaking down, kind of a poor mans scope.

I spent hours today and have another long list of things to check. I ran out of daylight before finishing the flow meter checks. I'll be back at all the things above tomorrow.

'hotdog tossed down a hallway' is a great way to describe how loose 1, 2 and 3 injector connectors are compared to the nicely-snug #4 injector. It's like sloppy 2nds/3rd/4ths/then a simultaneous birth of triplets looseness on the injector connectors 1, 2 and 3.

At the top of my priority list for tomorrow:
- fix loose injector connectors
- check throttle switch
- temperature sensor
- check fuel pressure
- finish air flow meter check
- check the Run/Stop switch wiring

that's just the top of my list. That's about 1/4 of the things I still need to test.

MY MAIN CONCERN is that this is a computer problem.

If that turns out to be the case, I'm going to convert the bike to carbs.

In my opinion the benefit of this huge mess of extra parts called 'fuel injection' is FAR overcome by all the extra problems from all the extra JUNK. Why anyone would replace a purely mechanical, time-tested, easy to work on mechanical piece (carb) with a computer, sensors, switches, A COMPUTER FOR GODS SAKE

If someone came up to me in 1977 when I bought my first Kz, a kz1000 A1, and said "looky here, how'd you like to install a computer on your bike there. Bunch of other stuff too, sensors, switches, high pressure lines, fuel pump, fuel regulator, 4 injectors, and a partridge in a pear tree"

"Would the gas mileage be better on my bike?"
'Maybe a little.'

"Would my bike have more power?"
'Maybe some.'

"Would people think I was cool?"
'Thats the ticket son you got it you would be cool like Steve McQueen'

I'm not familiar with the Z1 classic model, but usually T is top dead center. If it is TDC, it should never line up with the mark using a timing light. At idle, the F should line up, then at full advance there should be a double line for advance. Maybe it's different for that model? Anyone for sure?

Well it could be a computer problem, but I sort of doubt it. I've seen countless numbers of perfectly good computers get replaced, as well as many other parts, that were miss diagnosed. Problem is that about the only way to check it is to have a known good computer to try, or a known good bike to fit the suspect to.
I would rule out every other possibility first. I think this is why the carb conversion becomes popular, it is an old system, parts and diagnostics are hard to come by. Personally after you talking about the fuel tank issues, I would pull those Injectors and hang them off to the side and check the spray pattern, they should not drip but have a nice mist in the cone shape. When off but still under pressure there should be No leaks from their tips either.

Did you see I found a color wiring diagram here on KZR, its in your other thread.