TOPIC:

Any possibility of a mal-functioning engine stop switch, such as stuck in OFF position?

Good Fortune!

im still in the process of working on it but i figured i would throw up a quick update as i have found some interesting behavior. When i disconnect the wire circled in green the headlight goes out but the CDI will produce 12v to the coil. When either wire going to the coil from the CDI is plugged into the ignition coil the headlight turns back on. Seems like maybe there is something shorting to this circuit when it his connected to ground.

Nessism wrote: Why do so many people call the ignitor a CDI?

If you closely at the coils in the wiring diagram, you'll notice there is only one primary wire on each coil. That is a clue that it is truly a CDI. (If it had points, it would be a clue that it was a magneto ignition, and not a flyback Kettering.)

To others, I'm pretty certain there is no inline-four KZ with CDI. They are all Kettering flyback ignitions. Some with points, some with transistors. It is the later, small twins, like the 250 and 305 (I think the 305 is an update of the 250 twin, since they are both 180 crank motors) that have the oddball ignitions. (There was also a 250 single, which I think was an update of the 200 single. That may have had some unique ignition as well.)

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Regarding the original question:
First... that black white wire to the ignition switch is NOT 12v. It is a ground. Don't apply 12v there!
CDI ignitions don't necessarily need to get 12v from the battery. They get their power from a charging magneto, and the trigger comes from a separate timing coil. That is why some CDI bikes can run without a battery.

CDI ignitions are usually shut off by shorting out the power from the charging magneto, or simply shorting out the primary signal to the coil. As highlighted, there is also an interlock system attached. You might have to play with grounding that or, more likely, un-grounding it, to enable the CDI module.

The green wire appears to be the normal, and needed, ground wire for the module.

I would disconnect the black/white wire going to the kill switch, and disconnect the brown/white wire, at the module, and try it. The black/white wire is going to the ignition switch (Thanks Patton) as well. You may need to disconnect it there too. If you can find a disconnection point closer to the junction where the black/white meets the black/white wire from the magneto and the white wire from the CDI module, that would be better. That white wire is likely the power to the capacitor, so don't disconnect that from teh black/white wire coming from the magneto. (Be aware, if the motor starts this way, you will have to kill it by dropping the clutch etc, since there will be no turn off switch.)

BTW, that FSM diagram of the ignition is fantastic. You can actually see the white wire is the charging wire for the capacitor. It is the one that gets grounded by the kill switch to kill the power.

loudhvx wrote:

Nessism wrote: Why do so many people call the ignitor a CDI?

If you closely at the coils in the wiring diagram, you'll notice there is only one primary wire on each coil. That is a clue that it is truly a CDI. (If it had points, it would be a clue that it was a magneto ignition, and not a flyback Kettering.)

To others, I'm pretty certain there is no inline-four KZ with CDI. They are all Kettering flyback ignitions. Some with points, some with transistors. It is the later, small twins, like the 250 and 305 (I think the 305 is an update of the 250 twin, since they are both 180 crank motors) that have the oddball ignitions. (There was also a 250 single, which I think was an update of the 200 single. That may have had some unique ignition as well.)

---

Regarding the original question:
First... that black white wire to the ignition switch is NOT 12v. It is a ground. Don't apply 12v there!
CDI ignitions don't necessarily need to get 12v from the battery. They get their power from a charging magneto, and the trigger comes from a separate timing coil. That is why some CDI bikes can run without a battery.

CDI ignitions are usually shut off by shorting out the power from the charging magneto, or simply shorting out the primary signal to the coil. As highlighted, there is also an interlock system attached. You might have to play with grounding that or, more likely, un-grounding it, to enable the CDI module.

The green wire appears to be the normal, and needed, ground wire for the module.

I would disconnect the black/white wire going to the kill switch, and disconnect the brown/white wire, at the module, and try it. The black/white wire is going to the ignition switch (Thanks Patton) as well. You may need to disconnect it there too. If you can find a disconnection point closer to the junction where the black/white meets the black/white wire from the magneto and the white wire from the CDI module, that would be better. That white wire is likely the power to the capacitor, so don't disconnect that from teh black/white wire coming from the magneto. (Be aware, if the motor starts this way, you will have to kill it by dropping the clutch etc, since there will be no turn off switch.)

BTW, that FSM diagram of the ignition is fantastic. You can actually see the white wire is the charging wire for the capacitor. It is the one that gets grounded by the kill switch to kill the power.

That is some awesome info. Thanks may be a little short of my appreciation of this. That is where my confusion was! In the diagram for the CDI it showed that it should run off the magnet. However in any other system mentioned on this site the the battery is required for the power source. At this point I have not tried to apply 12 v to any wires as I didn't want to fry the electronics in the CDI. Figured I should get another opinion as to where the CDI gets its current to send to the coils before trying to bypass something. I only found that the CDI had a voltage by accidently disconnecting the grounding wire. I had previously taken measurements at the CDI output while the engine was turning and found that it will only produce a small voltage while turning. Must be something keeping it grounded while the magnet spins. This bike may live yet!

After figuring out that I should be able to get the CDI to function from the magnet I really started to scrutinize the stator coil and exciter coil assembly. I don't know how I missed it the first several rounds but I found the low speed exciter coil had a resistance dramatically lower than what was specified. when the bike was recked the side that took the hit was exactly where the stator and exciter coil assembly was. It must have taken damage shorting the windings in the low speed exciter coil. Might not be out of the woods yet but It's the most progress I have had on this bike in a very long time. I just want to take the time and say

I re-drew the switching charts. Notice that when the engine is off, the kill switch and/or the ignition switch makes a connection to the CDI module. That connection is what shorts the charging magneto to ground. This is to kill the ignition.

yes I noticed what you are saying. when the black/white wire touches ground through either switch it removes the ability of the CDI to see a voltage. I disconnected the grounding circuit at the fixed junction between the CDI and stator coil assembly to insure it could not be the switches grounding out. with the magnet spinning I measured the voltage produced by the CDI as 0.75-1.5V. My assumption is that with the low speed exciter coil shorted across some of the windings there is less voltage produced at low speed since the number of windings determines the voltage produced by a coil in a moving magnetic field. When measured the low speed exciter coil measured ~500 ohms when the accepted values fall between 2.5-4K ohms. That seems to corelate correctly with producing ~ %10 of the desired voltage.

punisher11b wrote: yes I noticed what you are saying. when the black/white wire touches ground through either switch it removes the ability of the CDI to see a voltage. I disconnected the grounding circuit at the fixed junction between the CDI and stator coil assembly to insure it could not be the switches grounding out. with the magnet spinning I measured the voltage produced to the CDI as 0.75-1.5V. My assumption is that with the low speed exciter coil shorted across some of the windings there is less voltage produced at low speed since the number of windings determines the voltage produced by a coil in a moving magnetic field. When measured the low speed exciter coil measured ~500 ohms when the accepted values fall between 2.5-4K ohms. That seems to corelate correctly with producing ~ %10 of the desired voltage.

Yes, definitely sounds like you will have to search out a slow-speed charging coil. Does the manual specify what voltage you will see there, on the white wire? I would expect it to be very low, and maybe even negative, initially. This is because the power will be in very short pulses, positive and negative, so the average voltage will be near zero. (It may start out negative because the positive voltage gets routed to the capacitor where it is initially a brief short to ground. The negative pulses will be at full voltage as they are blocked by the diodes. When a pulse or two start to accumulate on the capacitor, then the voltage will start to register positive.)

Considering if the other charging coil is still working, you should still see some kind of pulse at the spark coils. Have you tried to measure a pulse on the spark coil? You can disconnect the wire at the coil, and measure the voltage at that wire. Have the meter ready to measure 400v DC, though, if you are worried about the meter. (Maybe get a $4 disposable at Harbor Freight.) When the trigger pulse occurs, the voltage accumulated on the capacitor is applied to the spark coil. That is what you are trying to measure. If you have about 400v there, or more, then at least something is working. (With the low speed charger dead, it could be much lower.) If the meter can't handle 400v dc, you'll have to make a divider circuit to measure it properly, (easy to do).

That is not to say you should expect to see a reading of 400v dc on the meter. Meters measure the average voltage, not necessarily the peak. If there is leakage in the system, the voltage may drop quickly so the meter may only register 50 or 100v, even if there is a 400v spike. It depends on the meter and many other factors. But as long as you get some kind of positive DC voltage pulse on the spark coil, it would be a step in the right direction.

Re-posting the module diagram as a reference for myself in the future.
(BTW, you should be getting a thank you as well. I could not find either of the diagrams you posted anywhere else, in a quick search. This topic comes up periodically, and we have no references to go on.)

A somewhat related thread.

lamp.kzrider.com/forum/4-electrical/5941...capacitive-discharge

Unfortunately the stator coil and exciter coils are one entire assembly. Will have to be replaced as a whole. I have a 600V fluke for high voltage AC that I have been using so the meter should be fine. I have blown up enough meters in hand to have learned that lesson . There is no reference in the manual as to what the output from the exciter coils should be to the CDI or even what the CDI should produce to the ignition coils. I was under the impression that as the magnet spins the capacitor should store charge and then discharge only when the thyristors are triggered by the pick up coils and thyristor driving circuit correct? When I initially took the measurement I was referring to the voltage produced by the CDI, not sure why I wrote to the CDI.( I will edit and correct that shortly.) the voltage to the ignition coils is about 1 V. I may have made a poor assumption when I assumed that the ignition coil was supposed to receive 12 V in order to fire? I didn't think they would use a different design of step up transformer compared to other bikes. I figured since the coil primarily responsible for charging the capacitor at low speed was almost an order of magnitude smaller in resistance it explained the magnitude difference in output from the capacitor. I will take an accurate voltage measurement from the white wire to the CDI and from the CDI to the ignition coils and post it shortly.

All coils, regardless of ignition type, have about a 100:1 step up ratio. Accordingly, there needs to be a voltage spike around 300 to 500v. It will be brief so won't necessarily register on a meter as that high.

i think im starting to get on the same page. sorry if im a bit slow. the voltage discharged from the capacitor is nowhere near that. It could be that it is such a short burst however the voltage going to the ignition coils barely registers at all. I have included my results of voltage at all the prominent wires in the circuit . The first measurement in each reading is what the magnet sustains if it keeps spinning while the second value is what it will spike up to.