TOPIC:

Yes the rotor slug (which is what I call the pointy iron part) can move on the rotor cylinder, but it's very tight, and I've never seen one actually get moved. But, look at your rotor tip, it looks damaged to me, like it made contact with the pickup. Make sure you have more than a business card thickness of clearance. More like .5 to 1 mm. Try 1mm first. If it works then leave it.

If you point the strobe directly at the pickup while idling (in a dark garage), the rotor tip should be right at about the pickup, or just slightly past it, much like in your first of the two photos (but with the F mark lined up instead of what you have, which is the T lined up).

If you have a decent press, and appropriate cylinders and spacers, you can press off the iron slug from the cylinder, and gently press it back on in the correct orientation.. Never use a hammer, obviously. Make very careful measurements of how far the slug is pressed onto the cylinder, and very carefully notate where you want the point to line up. Also notice there is an arrow showing the direction of rotation.

On the Kz400/Kz440 twins, the ignition spins opposite of the bike's wheels. (On the inline fours, it spins the same way as the wheels, which is why you can't swap advancers from twins to fours.)

Thanks for your help, loudhvx. I don't have a press, so I won't try to remove the slug. It seems like the slug could move on the rotor, and also that the cylindrical part of the advancer body could move in relation to the plate. So I marked the positions of everything, put the plate in a vice -- carefully -- and tried to move the cylinder. I used channel locks on the underside of it. The only thing that moved was the ring-shaped part on the underside -- the part that fits over the crankshaft. That can spin, though not easily. Nothing else changed position. So I put the crankshaft bolt in it, found a metric nut, and snugged up the nut by hand, so the bolt wouldn't slip. I put a wrench on it and tried to turn it. No way.



I put the rotor in the vice, put a piece of steel in the slots at the bottom, and tried to turn it. No way.



If the slug touched the pickup magnet, it could have only just grazed it. I was leaning on these things pretty hard and I couldn't budge them in either direction. I don't think anything on the advancer could have moved.
I took the pickup coil and positioned the plate where I'd like it to be. I fastened it in place with one allen bolt and a washer. I started the bike, and though it ran poorly, it seemed better than before.



I checked the timing, and I'm getting closer to the F mark. But if I put the plate where it really needs to be, I'll only be able to secure it with one bolt. The other end of the plate won't reach the threaded hole. So strange.

I really don't think that you can move either of those things that way. But since you have a vice, you should be able to pull the rotor and press it back on, although you might want to grow a few extra hands.

If you can find a hollow cylinder to fit over the rotor cylinder, and another cylinder with a diameter just under that of the rotor slug, then you can press the rotor slug off, and then you can press it back on the same way.

If you are not in a hurry, you can send it to me and I can do it, or any machine shop with a press can do it. Make sure the person is not in a hurry and pays attention to detail. Most machinist do. That is the proper way to do it. I've done a couple (for testing purposes on various ignitions), and it's pretty easy.

It's still a major puzzle how it was ever working properly, though. Is it possible it was running ok with the timing off, or did you actually strobe the timing before and saw that it was actually correct? The change in running may be a different issue, and maybe a previous owner bought some mismatched parts from a different year or model?

Is there any possibility that the advance mechanism is 180 degrees mis-installed on the crank alignment pin and the pickup is supposed to be on the other side?
On the Kz900=1000 there is a small hole punched through the advance mechanism backing plate where you align the marks on the lobe of the cam to the correct area of the 180 degree rotation.... I know that's a long shot.
I can't seem to add a picture but I will in a few mins....

I don't think the advancer can be installed 180 out on the crank (but I'm not positive on the 440), but the rotor probably can be installed 180 out on the advancer (as is possible on other KZ's). But, I don't think the bike would run at all that way. Would probably just backfire a bunch.

loudhvx wrote: I don't think the advancer can be installed 180 out on the crank (but I'm not positive on the 440), but the rotor probably can be installed 180 out on the advancer (as is possible on other KZ's). But, I don't think the bike would run at all that way. Would probably just backfire a bunch.

Correct. I was not talking about the actual advance mechanism, just the actual cam lobe sleeve with respect to that lobe mark and the mechanism .
But I was thinking if both pieces were backwards including the pickup, on the left side.... moving the pick up assembly to the right side and flipping the cam sleeve 180 degrees might put the center of rotation of the cam lobe, with respect to the magnet plug, in a better spot for moving the backing plate CW or CCW to the timing marks.
I have no experience with this one.... so it might be a dumb comment.
I don't know LOL ... just thinking out loud here gentlemen.

He shows the position of the rotor point relative to the pickup when the T and/or F mark are lined up. That definitively shows crank location versus pickup-to-rotor position, and it's off by what appears is about 10 degrees. That's all we really need to see ,(assuming the crank roll pin is in tact).

That much error might result from using an advancer or pickup assembly from a different model or different year, and as he first thought, may have been due to a rotor-pickup collision. That can be easily corrected, but the real question is why did it change, if it in fact did, and if it did not change, then what else may have changed to cause the bike to run differently.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice. Thank you. The advancer can only fit on the crankshaft in one position, because of a pin on the crank that fits in a slot on the underside of the advancer. The rotor can fit two different ways, 180 degrees opposite. But my FSM tells me to line up the lobe on the rotor with the "TEC" mark on the advancer. So everything is definitely put together in the proper way. I agree that the really interesting questions are -- what changed, and why?
The bike ran well in mid-March. Two weeks later, it didn't. In between, I replaced the cracked carb holders and cleaned some of the electrical connections. When the bike started to run poorly, I checked the valves. They were out of adjustment, even though I'd adjusted them in January. When the bike ran well, I had good vacuum. Now I have virtually no vacuum. I didn't have a timing light back in March. I bought it when all of this trouble started. I can't help thinking that the valves being out of adjustment is a clue. I'm going to check true TDC, and see if the timing marks on the advancer are accurate.
I think I found a used advancer online. When it gets here, I'll compare it to what I've got. Again, I really appreciate the advice from you guys. I'd be enjoying this puzzle, if it weren't my bike, and if it weren't Spring.

Not trying to be insulting, but did you put the vacuum caps on the new carb holders? Ed

That's okay, 650ed. I'm new to motorcycles, so all advice is welcome. But my carb holders don't have vacuum nipples.

Well I guess vacuum caps aren't a problem. I should have looked at the carb holder diagram before I asked. Ed

lack of vacuum is definitely a clue. I guess a compression test would be in order now, too.