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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 29 Mar 2015 11:36 #665634

  • missionkz
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Starting to get all the bugs worked out but running into an old niggle that has gotten worse. :angry:

KZ1000A1, stock bore, cam and head. About 36,000 miles (I think).
Still has my old Dyna III ignition (no points), set to stock timing marks (with strobe light) and still has the original stock 37 year old coil pair.
New plugs, gap is about .028".
Carbs are very well cleaned out and "rebuilt". Floats are good with the clear tube method.
Using 115 mains and #20 pilot jets, idle mixture screws are at 1 3/4 turns out.
Has an old Denco Industries 4 into 1 headers with baffle installed. Air cleaners are a pair of 2 into 1 oval pods.
Bike runs very well up to about 6000-7000 rpm under strong 3rd or 4th gear load and acceleration and then suddenly starts flubbing and missing like someone is pulling a random plug wire on and off.
The new spark plugs, after chop, insulators are light grey/beige and really not black or sooty.
If I accelerate slower in lower gears with less throttle, it doesn't really do this misfiring as bad but it will start doing it well before my 8500-9000 rpm redline.
Adding to all this:
Over the last few years, before parking it for 3 or more years....I had noticed that every once in a while when starting it cold, very rough idle, #1 and #4 pipes are cool/warm for a few moments, while #2 and #3 are hotter then blue blazes. Then after a bit, they get just as hot as the others.
It has done this to me a couple times this week already.

Is this a symptom of a bad coil? Bad HT leads, plug caps or a fractured primary wire some where?
Could the old Dyna III cause an overheated stock coil? Or is the stock Kaw coil's resistance
enough to limit that?

After finding the original coils at around 10vdc, I pulled the tank and chased the coil primary wires down to their barrel connectors and cleaned them as best I could. Got it up to whopping 10.7 volts with respect to the negative battery terminal.
I forgot to check the primary resistance but I did check the secondary across the two plug caps at around 27K Ohms.
Also, if the bike is idling on all four cylinders and I pull the plug caps off the plugs, the coils will jump a solid +3/8" air cap back to the spark plug and the engine continues to idle as normal.

Kind of scratching my head on this one now.

If I decide new ignition coils are needed, should I invest in the Dyna Coils, DC1-1... or go with aftermarket stock repro coils?
The difference of the Dyna coils being $40--$60 over other "after market" coils is rather mute at this point, but over the last few days, when using the lower resistance coils, I have been reading about overloaded charge systems and all that rot.

Thoughts or comments are very welcome....
Bruce
1977 KZ1000A1
2016 Triumph T120 Bonneville
Far North East Metro Denver Colorado

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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 29 Mar 2015 17:56 #665671

  • Patton
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Coil primary is supposed to receive full battery voltage.



Would also consider installing new Dyna green 3 ohm ignition coils together with Dyna solid core plug wires (that come with built-in caps).

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 29 Mar 2015 18:47 #665682

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How old is the battery?
Steve

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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 11:04 #665795

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I should mention that I do vintage electronics for a living and have a decent concept of all this.
The battery (and acid) is brand new for this project.... about 30 days old been installed for about 4-5 days now. It was fully charged from my battery charger and monitored by me with a current meter in series with the charging cables... etc.
I'm pretty sure the alternator in the bike puts out plenty of charge voltage with the engine running, Depending on the rpm and load on the battery and charge system, I think it was anywhere from 12.8vdc to around +14vdc.
Bruce
1977 KZ1000A1
2016 Triumph T120 Bonneville
Far North East Metro Denver Colorado

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Last edit: by missionkz. Reason: typo

Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 11:09 #665796

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Patton wrote: Coil primary is supposed to receive full battery voltage.
*****************************************
Would also consider installing new Dyna green 3 ohm ignition coils together with Dyna solid core plug wires (that come with built-in caps).

Good Fortune! :)


I'm thinking to replace the 37 year old coils and wires too. Are you suggesting I also do the remote relay mod? I have not pulled the handlebar control switches apart nor removed, cleaned and replaced wires out of the left side electrical box area....
Bruce
1977 KZ1000A1
2016 Triumph T120 Bonneville
Far North East Metro Denver Colorado

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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 17:39 #665841

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Would continue the stock wiring configuration and not do any modifications.

Would confirm that ignition coil primary terminal voltage matches battery+ voltage, as this assures no drop in voltage between the battery and ignition coils. A drop in voltage is likely due to corroded connectors or corrosion inside a switch (see posted illustration). If there's insignificant drop in voltage, the connectors and switches are probably free of corrosion.

Would remove plugs and visually confirm fat blue sparks.

Even if the old stock coils are okay, the built-in plug wires may be leaking high tension voltage. Could spray water mist over the plug wires while engine is running in a dark garage to see possible fireworks display.

In any event, replacement of the old coils and plug wires is long overdue, even if full battery voltage is being received at the coil primary terminals.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Last edit: by Patton.

Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 20:24 #665877

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I never thought about HT wires flashing over under the tank.
Sparks are not fat and blue but a little more whitish light blue with yellow... I know that sounds stupid.
I know what this engine felt like years ago when +125mph was a piece of cake!
This is something the bike does every time when reving through 3rd, 4th, 5th gear and under a 3/4 to WOT load.
It feels like a super blubbery rich fuel mixture with a carb running much much big of main jets, mixed with an ignition system that is misfiring randomly.
I'm thinking the same thing about the coils and HT wires regardless... I've gone this far in the rebuild and the cost of new coils, HT wires and plugs won't kill me.

On another note.... is the choke plunger rubber tip in these VM26SS carbs an item that needs replacement during rebuild? Very pricey if so.
I was wondering if they were to leak a wee bit, would the higher (manifold) pressure (drop in vacuum) with 1/2 to WOT still create an abnormal mixture? I'm really starting to pick silly desperate stuff here...LOL.
I pulled the E clips off the plunger shaft when previously cleaning everything and slightly stretched the springs for a tiny bit more pressure to the seat when reassembled.... hope that didn't screw anything up.
Thanks for all the help so far.... although a member here for many years.... I never really needed any help until now!
Bruce
1977 KZ1000A1
2016 Triumph T120 Bonneville
Far North East Metro Denver Colorado

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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 20:50 #665883

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What do the rubber seats look like. If they leak, they could cause a rich mixture. At open throttle, the vacuum is much greater.
Steve

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Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 30 Mar 2015 23:23 #665889

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They are not really deteriorating but do have a slight circular depression/groove ring all around the rubber flat sealing area.
I'll have to remove the choke link shaft and the pull off the plunger clips to look again.
I would think with the throttles open there would be less vacuum.

********
Maybe I should move this part over to the carburetor forum.....??
Bruce
1977 KZ1000A1
2016 Triumph T120 Bonneville
Far North East Metro Denver Colorado

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Last edit: by missionkz. Reason: edited comment

Dyna III and stock coils KZ1000A1 31 Mar 2015 02:51 #665895

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After replacing the stock points ignition on my KZ900 Ltd with a Dyna-S, I continued using the original coils with built-in plug wires. The coil primary wiring passed the ohm test and the secondary circuit also passed the ohm test (plug cap to plug cap). Eventually, the plug wires deteriorated to the extent of passing enough voltage through the engine and frame to produce an "electronic buzzing" felt through the fingers when switching the petcock onto reserve while riding. That's when I decided the old hard cracked plug wires definitely needed replacing, which of course also required replacing the stock coils.

In a situation where the stock coils are still functional, but the integrated plug wires are deteriorated, there's a plug wire "splicer" available.




The old plug wires could be cut off, leaving a short stub to which the splicer is attached, and new plug wire running from the splicer.




Imo, splicer money is better spent toward new coils, because the existing stock coils, even if serviceable, are likely nearing the end of their useful lives.

Would correct the ignition system before fooling with the choke pads.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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