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Nuetral switch starting issues? 04 Feb 2008 17:20 #192781

  • ThatGPzGuy
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Fix one problem and another pops up...
OK. Got forks done and brakes cleaned up. I even got this cold-blooded biotch to start up pretty regularly. Until tonight. I went to start it and nothing. Not even a click. That has been happening intermittantly but it has always started after awhile. Now, when it had happened before my nuetral indicator was always lit up. Tonight I could not get the nuetral light to go on. The bike was definitely in nuetral. Could this have something to do with it not starting? I started it in gear the other day (by accident) so I am not sure if it is supposed to start in gear or not. Could a bad switch be causing these problems?
Too bad because it is supposed to be over 70F tomorrow...
TIA,
Jim
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 04 Feb 2008 18:03 #192785

  • Mark Wing
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I don't think the neutral light has anything to do with it, on the KZ's it doesn't. It's more likely the switch on the clutch so it won't start unless it's pulled in.
Mark
Jesus loves you Everyone else thinks your an ***

77 KZ650 C1 with ZX7 forks, GPZ mono rear, wider 18 police wheels and Yoshimura motor.

Yorba Linda Cal.

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 04 Feb 2008 18:44 #192793

  • ThatGPzGuy
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Hmmm OK. I wonder why my nuetral light won't? Something else to figure out...
Anyway, How can I R and R the clutch switch?
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 04 Feb 2008 20:15 #192804

  • The Gringo
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I had my 750 L-3 giving me the same fits. Was working fine and then all of a sudden nothing the starter would not crank it at all and even though I had lights the neutral light would go out. The bike would push start fine and run fine. After trying all kinds of things I finally checked the ground strap from the battery to the engine block. When I tried to remove the bolt from the block it snapped. I relocated it to a clutch cover screw and it has worked fine ever since. So check your ground.
Andy
Akron, Ohio
80 Z-1 Classic-Sold
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KZ 750 times 3, KZ 650 times 8 Sold 1 down to 7
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81 CSR 305-Sold 81 Yamaha XS650 Special

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 04 Feb 2008 20:25 #192807

  • 650ed
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If it isn't the ground strap be sure to check the connections at the voltage regulator and make sure the battery is fully charged. I experienced the same symptoms a few years ago and found one of the regulator connections to be loose and consequently the battery wasn't charging all the time. The connector was easy to spot as it had cooked a bit and turned black. I replaced all 3 reulator connections & battery - problem solved. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 05 Feb 2008 03:22 #192827

  • Qdude
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My bike used to be a tough starter.

Therefore I wanted to be able to engage the starter with one hand free so that I could mess with the choke and such while cranking.

I figured out a way to remove the clutch switch, which as you know needs to be closed in order for the starter button to engage the solenoid.

It was simple to do on my 77 650 C.

Trace the clutch lever switch wires back down to the core wire bundle under the tank. You should find a plug per each wire near the core wire bundle. Mine had the plugs wired about an inch and a half off from the core.

Disconnect both wires at the plugs. One will be male and the other will be female. Now simply connect the two wires coming from the core wire bundle (that used to travel up to the clutch engage switch) to each other instead. They now make a little loop.

You have simply taken one of the two switches out of the circuit. This does not draw any extra current or keep the starter engaged constantly. I fact, there will be no current draw over this switch while the starter button is open (i. e. not pushed in), it is a redundant switch meant for safety.

Just remember to be smarter than your modification.

There should be a hot wire from the ignition switch feeding power through (among other things) the neutral lamp, from the lamp on down to the neutral sensor switch and finally to ground. The neutral lamp will engage when the switch closes. The lamp not going on is an indication of a problem, it is not the cause of the problem itself (my bike's circuitry has the starter circuit and the neutral lamp circuit as separate circuits. The starter does not depend whatsoever on the neutral lamp.).

I would root out the problem with a wiring schematic and a ohm/volt meter. It was well worth the trouble I assure you and not necessarily a difficult one, a la the post preceding mine.

Not to mention how much you learn about the bike in the process. Hell, I'm a bartender.

P.S. My bike used to have electrical gremlins. Intermittent power and accessories and such. I found that I had a hot wire that had melted both it's insulation as well as the insulation of adjacent wires, right up the center of the core bundle. Sometimes it would short out, particularly on wet days, and give me all sorts of trouble.


Post edited by: Qdude, at: 2008/02/05 06:28

Post edited by: Qdude, at: 2008/02/05 06:38

Post edited by: Qdude, at: 2008/02/05 06:39
77 KZ 650 C1.
77 KZ 650 C1.
Crashed-Repaired, Pods, Kerker pipe, re-wired core bundle, lamp upgraded, homemade rectifier, solid state regulator , Dyna-s ignition, repainted, slightly modified, year-round commuter
Honda Metro 85 mpg Scooter. Dont laugh I will throw it at you

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 04:30 #193086

  • ThatGPzGuy
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Thanks everyone. I'll give the above suggestions a go when I have a moment to work on it. I need to get my mustang back on the road and the tractor fixed before planting season. It never ends around here...
I'll let everyone know how it goes.
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 07:33 #193101

  • wiredgeorge
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Jim, You have lots of good advice... the neutral switch is just an idiot light tied to the shift drum where there is a long peg that closes the circuit when the bike is in nuetral. This peg is at the 8 oclock position when properly oriented and if the light works SOMETIMES but not OTHER TIMES, then there is just a bad contact which isn't unusual. The pin touches a depression in a little plate which is fastened to the end of the shift drum by a 5mm bolt or screw. In any case, it has zip to do with the starting issue.

You most likely have a clutch interlock. The way your start system works is that voltage goes from your battery to your starter via a relay (solenoid). When the solenoid is triggered by a voltage, the thing closes internally, and power goes from the battery to the starter. The trigger power comes from a fused circuit that first goes through your ignition switch, then the kill switch and then to a button in the right switch gear. The interlock part where the clutch must be squeezed is powered by a wire coming off the kill switch and then going to the start button instead of directly wired inside the right switchgear.

To troubleshoot this system, first check your NEGATIVE battery cable and ensure it is securely grounded. This is the most likely cause of a no-power type situation. Ensure both cables at both ends are cleaned and coated with dielectric grease to prevent corrosion.

Second test is to take a heavy gauge wire and touch the POS battery cable and the lug on the starter relay (solenoid) that has the cable connected to the starter... it is fat and black... about a 10 ga wire stranded copper cable I would guess. If the starter kicks over, the starter is likely OK and if not, you have a starter or starter clutch issue.

Next, you need to test the relay. Take a smaller gauge wire and touch the POS battery cable with one end the other end touch to the soldered-on small gauge black wire connection... this wire is either 16 or 18 gauge I guess, that is soldered onto the solenoid side between the two big lugs where the battery and starter cables are connected. This connection is the "trigger" that comes from your starter button. If you have the relay click and the starter spin, the solenoid is good.

OK, at this point, if you are still having issues, the problem will be in the the wiring that leads to the starter button or in the clutch interlock switch, ignition switch or kill switch or one of the associated connectors. A test light is handy so you can quickly look for the point where the failure is occuring.

OK... wire going to ignition switch... there is a major connector going to the ignition switch, separate the connector and clean/dab pins with dielectic grease. If you have a bad connection here, it will be on a FAT white wire coming from the harness which is the main lead from the main fuse. This wire should be HOT all the time. Check it with the light by grounding the light and touching the probe part to the white wire. I am pretty sure it will come on if anything else works when you turn on the key. If it doesn't, the problem is fuse or fuse block related since there is a wire going direct from the battery to the main fuse.

Next, when you find power, reconnect the ignition switch. Look for the wire coming out of the ignition switch that connects to your kill switch. You can look up the wire color yourself but the only point of failure here will be the ignition switch or connector between the ignition and kill switch. Open this connector, clean with electrical contact cleaner and dab pins with dielectric grease. Now, turn on the key to run position and check for voltage on the pin associated with the wire that goes to the kill switch. If there is NO POWER, the ignition switch is bad. If there IS power, connect the connector back up and move on.

Now, if there was power, you need to check the KILL SWITCH. Open up the right switchgear and look inside. Note there is a black wire coming out and going back out of the kill switch. The kill switch is a VERY LIKELY source of your problem. Turn the key on again and check for power using the test light on the wire coming directly out of the switch... put the probe on the exposed part of the wire inside the switch gear. If you get the light to come on with the switch in the RUN POSITION, the switch is OK... if not, jiggle the switch. If you find the power comes on, even sporadically, the switch will need to be fixed to where it will work properly, or replace the switch, or bypass the switch. I would recommend the first two options rather than bypassing the switch.

OK... you found power with the switch in the run position... Now you have a black wire going over to the clutch perch where there is a switch. This switch must close in order complete the loop back to the ignition switch that the power takes to trigger the solenoid.

Test the switch by turning the key on, put the kill switch in RUN and check for power where the black wire comes back into the right switchgear at the start button. If the light comes on WITH THE CLUTCH PULLED IN, the switch is good... if the light doesn't come on, the switch is probably bad.

You can further test the switch by taking loose the wire that goes TO the switch and the wire that comes off the switch and put a piece of wire in both connectors which effectively bypasses this switch. Turn the key on, put the kill switch in RUN and check for power where the black wire comes back into the right switchgear at the start button. If the light comes on WITH the power to/from the switch jumped, the switch is likely bad.

If you find the switch good, last thing to check is the start button and connector to the main harness where it connects to the solenoid. You have power TO the button... OK, put your probe on the wire coming off the start button... it is a black wire. You can pull open the right hand switchgear connector (that connects to the main harness and check for voltage here using the light touched to the black wire associated pin. Use some spray electric contact cleaner and dielectric grease on the pins. Turn the key on, kill switch on, pull in the clutch lever after re-hooking the wires properly and push the start button (it is good to have a couple extra hands for much of these tests). You should see power by the test light lighting when you push the start button. If you don't, you can try cleaning the contacts by light using some steel wool and slightly stretch the spring behind the button to tension it but if you still can't get it to work, then replace the button.

The only other issue you might be having is that the main wiring harness has been opened up in the past and the wire associated with this circuit has been cut and spliced back together and there is a bad splice.

Geesh... I have typed enough for today.
wiredgeorge Motorcycle Carburetors
Mico TX
www.wgcarbs.com
Too many bikes to list!

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 07:53 #193104

  • ThatGPzGuy
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Holy Cow!
This is awesome Thanks George.
I do have the clutch interlock. I still have not figured out how to get it out so I can check/clean it. My manual says to depress a small pin to unlock but I have not seen it. I'll go through your list (time permitting) and see whats what.
Thanks again,
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 11:28 #193137

  • PLUMMEN
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i always remove the switch/wires from clutch lever and run the wires somewhere under seat or tank and install a toggle switch i can turn off.that way if even if you have the keys you cant start the bike unless you know where the extra switch is mounted;)
Still recovering,some days are better than others.

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 17:43 #193168

  • ThatGPzGuy
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OK.
Checked Ground. It's good.
Checked the starter by putting 12v on the starter lug on the solenoid. Starter turns. No problems there.
Tested the solenoid. Now, there are two small gauge wires coming from the solenoid; a black one and a yellow/red wire. I applied the 12 volts to both in turn and got nothing on either one. No click, no starter spin, nothing.
So... bad solenoid?
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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Nuetral switch starting issues? 06 Feb 2008 19:01 #193185

  • ThatGPzGuy
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Dohhh!
I thought about it for a few minutes and realized one of the two small wires coming off the solenoid was probably a ground. Sure enough when I figured out which was the ground and applied 12V to the other the starter turned over. So... back to checking the starter button and clutch interlock switch...
Jim
North GA
2016 Yamaha FJR1300ES
1982 GPz750 R1
1974 Kawasaki H1
1976 Kawasaki KZ400
1979 Yamaha XS650 cafe'
2001 KZ1000P
2001 Yamaha YZ426
1981 Honda XR200 stroked in an '89 CR125 chassis
1965 Mustang
1967 Triumph GT6
1976 Bronco
"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

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