TOPIC:

I've also read that too much zinc can actually be bad for your engine. If I remember right, anything over 2000 ppm of zinc will actually attack metal, or something to that effect. Just be sure you aren't going overboard with the zinc and you should be alright.

toadson wrote:

I've also read that too much zinc can actually be bad for your engine. If I remember right, anything over 2000 ppm of zinc will actually attack metal, or something to that effect. Just be sure you aren't going overboard with the zinc and you should be alright.

I remember something but couldn't find specifics when I searched for it. All I remember is that too much can accumulate in the combustion chamber, but I thought it had to be like 3000 ppm.

Here is another very good article I found about Rotella.

Hib Halverson
Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media


Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,086
My Corvette(s):
04 Z06/Z16, 95 ZR1, 71 BB Cpe

There are a number of urban legends in this thread which are bad information. What follows will attempt to correct them.

1) Shell Rotella T has 1100 PPM ZDP. That is more than adequate to lubricate most any flat tappet, OHV valvetrain.

2) That ZDP has been removed from Rotella T is incorrect information. In fact, the idea that all ZDP has been removed from engine oil in general is a laughable myth propagated by the additive makers. It is true that, in some but not all cases, ZDP content has been reduced, but it has not been eliminated. In other cases, it remains at high levels.

3) As for diesel engine oils, specifically, there are rumors in the hobby that the spec for diesel engine oil is soon to change and that will eliminate or dangerously reduce ZDP. That's another freakin' fairly tale. While CF-5 has yet to be announced, the ILSAC-Oil Committee has stated that the new spec will retain the CF-4 limit on ZDP.

4) If the application is an OHV, flat-tappet engine with any modifications to the valvetrain which increase pressure at the lifter/lobe interface beyond stock, both Shell Rotella T 10W30 and Chevron Delo 400 LE 10W30 are cost effective choices for engine oil offering long term durability. Shell is the best of the two because it's the one that's available in quarts.

5) The statement above...
Quote:
I dump in a bottle of Comp Cams break in lube at every oil change.
...is foolish and dangerous advice.

You are far better to use the right oil to begin with.

That said, additives are deeply-rooted in automotive culture and some Vettesters, regardless of the facts, will insist on "fortifying" mass-marketed engine. If that's you, at least pick one with known contents. That way, you can add the correct amount to gain the appropriate phosphorous level.

"Cam Break-In" from COMP Cams was engineered as a break-in supplement and not as an additive for regular use. While not intended as an additive to boost an existing oil's EP lubricity in regular use, it can improve oils with low phos content provided it's used properly. I analyzed it and found: 1) it's active ingredient is molybdenumdithiophosphate ("MolyDTP") rather than ZDP and 2) its nominal phosphorous content is 8400 PPM. "Cam Break-In" has way too much MolyDTP in it to be used one bottle per oil change. In fact, mixed to that concentration, in long term use, you may damage your engine. If you insist upon trying to fortify a ILSAC GF-4/API SM oil, which typically are at about 700 PPM phos., add 1 1/2-oz of COMP break-in additive per quart of oil to bring a GF-4 to 1100-1200 PPM phos. Once you get beyond 1500-1700 PPM in a street duty cycle, you risk long-term damage to to accelerated "chemical wear" of the cam and lifters.

6) The statement above...
Quote:
I use the ZDDP additive as well. Buy it right off eBay.
...is just as dangerous.

There are no standards of any kind for "ZDDP additives". You buy off eBay and you know no idea how much ZDP (if any) is in an additive or how other components in the additive will interact with the oil into which it's introduced. It is not wise to use any ZDDP additive. There are plenty of oil choices that have superior extrememe pressure (EP) lubrication. But...if you insist on an additive, see my above comments about using one for which content information is known.

7) The statement above...
Quote:
an alternative would be the mobil1 15w50
their website says it has 1200ppm zinc for flat tappet engines.
...is correct in that M1 15W50 is an "alternative". Problem is: it's not a good alternative. No Corvette engine...well, other than maybe a few very unusual race engines...needs a 15W50. In most cases, 50wt oils increase engine oil temperature and decrease oil pump reliability/durability. The best choice is a 10W30. If you insist on a "Mobil 1" branded product with high ZDP, the one to use in most cases is "High Mileage" 10W30 which has 1000 PPM ZDP.

8) For pre-86 engines with stock valvetrains which are in fully broken-in and in good condition, you don't need any special oil.

9) The problem comes when you make mods to the engine which increase static or dynamic pressures at the lobe/lifter interface over O.E. levels or you use a cam or lifters which are not manufactured to the same specs as OE. Examples are aftermarket "OE-replacement" cams which are not properly phosphated, aftermarket cams with any profile more aggressive than stock, aftermarket lifters from questionable sources, higher-ratio rocker arms and aftermarket valve springs. Once you and any of those parts, you need to use an oil with 800-1200 PPM ZDP.

10) Suggestions for flat tappet engines in all but the most aggressive, all-out, racing applications:

Good Shell Rotella T 10W30 (1100PPM phos), Chevron Delo 400LE 10W30 (1100 PPM phos), Mobil 1 "High-Mileage" 10W30 (1000 PPM phos)

Better Valvoline VR-1 10W30, Joe Gibbs Driven "Hot Rod" 10W30. (both 1200 PPM phos)

Best Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil 10W30 (ester-based and 1200 PPM phos)
Last edited by Hib Halverson; 12-03-08 at 05:36 PM. Reason: typos
Reply w/ Quote |
12-03-08, 05:43 PM

That looks like a good article you posted otakar. It sounds to me like using those additives in Rotella is just a bad idea unless you know exactly what you are putting in there.

Everything I have found states that Rotella Mineral has 1100ppm and the Synthetic has 1200ppm. Because the Synthetic (which I will be running) is 5w-40, I will still be putting in the Rislone and the Lucas, nether of which have ZDDP. I will than just use the STP additive to boost the ZDDP back up and a bit over the 1200ppm. For brake-in on the new top end I will be running a 10w-30 high millage (mineral) oil to which I will put a bottle of STP. for those 500-700 miles I will most likely be somewhere close to 2000+-ppm.

MentalMike: Thanks for the Amsoil study! It helped reinforce my positive opinion about the Mobil-1 Racing 4T I've been using. Ed

otakar wrote:

Everything I have found states that Rotella Mineral has 1100ppm and the Synthetic has 1200ppm. Because the Synthetic (which I will be running) is 5w-40, I will still be putting in the Rislone and the Lucas, nether of which have ZDDP. I will than just use the STP additive to boost the ZDDP back up and a bit over the 1200ppm. For brake-in on the new top end I will be running a 10w-30 high millage (mineral) oil to which I will put a bottle of STP. for those 500-700 miles I will most likely be somewhere close to 2000+-ppm.

Before you add the Lucas, read this first:
www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

Not sure if it's the same additive or not, but it basically made the oil foam up because the oil did not have enough anti-foam additives to make up for the Lucas. I would personally stay away from adding anything to the oil, with the exception of a little bit of zinc or phosphorus. Seeing that experiment kinda warded me away from oil additives, haha.

Do to the fact that we have a sight window to see what our oil level is, You can see if foaming is occurring or not. I have never had a problem with foaming. Believe me, a clutch housing would froth up anything that it could. i have never seen any oil color change in my engines. this is also why they make a special stabilizer for synthetics. This guy is running a synthetic Hipoid and a regular stabilizer. I run synthetic with the proper synthetic stabilizer.

This is the product i use.

I took the link and emailed it to Lucas and asked for an explanation. Let's see what they say.

MentalMike wrote:

Amsoil released a study of motorcycle oils in June. Open the link to view.


www.amsoil.com/lit/G-2156.pdf

the torco oil actually had least amount of zinc in the test and had the least amount of wear

otakar wrote:

This is the product i use.

I took the link and emailed it to Lucas and asked for an explanation. Let's see what they say.

Good idea! I'd like to know what they say as well. My uncle used the stuff in his Lumina and I showed him the article. Don't know if he will still use it or not. But regarding your other post, I guess our little glass window for the oil comes in handy after all!

otakar wrote:

Here is another very good article I found about Rotella.

Hib Halverson
Technical Writer for Internet & Print Media


Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,086
My Corvette(s):
04 Z06/Z16, 95 ZR1, 71 BB Cpe

There are a number of urban legends in this thread which are bad information. What follows will attempt to correct them.

1) Shell Rotella T has 1100 PPM ZDP. That is more than adequate to lubricate most any flat tappet, OHV valvetrain.

2) That ZDP has been removed from Rotella T is incorrect information. In fact, the idea that all ZDP has been removed from engine oil in general is a laughable myth propagated by the additive makers. It is true that, in some but not all cases, ZDP content has been reduced, but it has not been eliminated. In other cases, it remains at high levels.

3) As for diesel engine oils, specifically, there are rumors in the hobby that the spec for diesel engine oil is soon to change and that will eliminate or dangerously reduce ZDP. That's another freakin' fairly tale. While CF-5 has yet to be announced, the ILSAC-Oil Committee has stated that the new spec will retain the CF-4 limit on ZDP.

4) If the application is an OHV, flat-tappet engine with any modifications to the valvetrain which increase pressure at the lifter/lobe interface beyond stock, both Shell Rotella T 10W30 and Chevron Delo 400 LE 10W30 are cost effective choices for engine oil offering long term durability. Shell is the best of the two because it's the one that's available in quarts.

5) The statement above...
Quote:
I dump in a bottle of Comp Cams break in lube at every oil change.
...is foolish and dangerous advice.

You are far better to use the right oil to begin with.

That said, additives are deeply-rooted in automotive culture and some Vettesters, regardless of the facts, will insist on "fortifying" mass-marketed engine. If that's you, at least pick one with known contents. That way, you can add the correct amount to gain the appropriate phosphorous level.

"Cam Break-In" from COMP Cams was engineered as a break-in supplement and not as an additive for regular use. While not intended as an additive to boost an existing oil's EP lubricity in regular use, it can improve oils with low phos content provided it's used properly. I analyzed it and found: 1) it's active ingredient is molybdenumdithiophosphate ("MolyDTP") rather than ZDP and 2) its nominal phosphorous content is 8400 PPM. "Cam Break-In" has way too much MolyDTP in it to be used one bottle per oil change. In fact, mixed to that concentration, in long term use, you may damage your engine. If you insist upon trying to fortify a ILSAC GF-4/API SM oil, which typically are at about 700 PPM phos., add 1 1/2-oz of COMP break-in additive per quart of oil to bring a GF-4 to 1100-1200 PPM phos. Once you get beyond 1500-1700 PPM in a street duty cycle, you risk long-term damage to to accelerated "chemical wear" of the cam and lifters.

6) The statement above...
Quote:
I use the ZDDP additive as well. Buy it right off eBay.
...is just as dangerous.

There are no standards of any kind for "ZDDP additives". You buy off eBay and you know no idea how much ZDP (if any) is in an additive or how other components in the additive will interact with the oil into which it's introduced. It is not wise to use any ZDDP additive. There are plenty of oil choices that have superior extrememe pressure (EP) lubrication. But...if you insist on an additive, see my above comments about using one for which content information is known.

7) The statement above...
Quote:
an alternative would be the mobil1 15w50
their website says it has 1200ppm zinc for flat tappet engines.
...is correct in that M1 15W50 is an "alternative". Problem is: it's not a good alternative. No Corvette engine...well, other than maybe a few very unusual race engines...needs a 15W50. In most cases, 50wt oils increase engine oil temperature and decrease oil pump reliability/durability. The best choice is a 10W30. If you insist on a "Mobil 1" branded product with high ZDP, the one to use in most cases is "High Mileage" 10W30 which has 1000 PPM ZDP.

8) For pre-86 engines with stock valvetrains which are in fully broken-in and in good condition, you don't need any special oil.

9) The problem comes when you make mods to the engine which increase static or dynamic pressures at the lobe/lifter interface over O.E. levels or you use a cam or lifters which are not manufactured to the same specs as OE. Examples are aftermarket "OE-replacement" cams which are not properly phosphated, aftermarket cams with any profile more aggressive than stock, aftermarket lifters from questionable sources, higher-ratio rocker arms and aftermarket valve springs. Once you and any of those parts, you need to use an oil with 800-1200 PPM ZDP.

10) Suggestions for flat tappet engines in all but the most aggressive, all-out, racing applications:

Good Shell Rotella T 10W30 (1100PPM phos), Chevron Delo 400LE 10W30 (1100 PPM phos), Mobil 1 "High-Mileage" 10W30 (1000 PPM phos)

Better Valvoline VR-1 10W30, Joe Gibbs Driven "Hot Rod" 10W30. (both 1200 PPM phos)

Best Red Line Synthetic Engine Oil 10W30 (ester-based and 1200 PPM phos)
Last edited by Hib Halverson; 12-03-08 at 05:36 PM. Reason: typos
Reply w/ Quote |
12-03-08, 05:43 PM

i have personal 1st hand experiance of atleast 2 smallblock chevys that have gone over 500,000 miles running mobil 1 oil since they were new that still looked brand new internally