TOPIC:

If we can build giant pipelines to transport oceans of oil across continents, we can replace some wires and transformers.

The torque is unreal. In it's infancy, electric vehicles are already poised to make liquid fuel obsolete on Pike's Peak..

But yes, it would be nice to get some more range out of the damn things.

loudhvx wrote: If we can build giant pipelines to transport oceans of oil across continents, we can replace some wires and transformers....
.

True, but when the electricity is generated by coal what's to be gained?

Just wait till there is a million sofa sized batterys sitting to be recycled too.

650ed wrote:

loudhvx wrote: If we can build giant pipelines to transport oceans of oil across continents, we can replace some wires and transformers....
.

True, but when the electricity is generated by coal what's to be gained?

Thats assuming that energy production will not change. There are many recent developments in solar that, while still in their infancy, are looking very promising. Currently the average solar cell only has about 13%-17% efficiency. what if they could get that to 50%? What about solar farms in the south? If more people in the burbs with land space relied on there own solar power that would free up energy for consumption in more concentrated areas as well.

The logic I have been trying to feed my landlord is that if he installs solar on the house he can charge me slightly less than the utility company and pay off his investment in 5 years, then make profit on a system that has very little maintenance, and adds value to his property.

KZB2 650 wrote: Just wait till there is a million sofa sized batterys sitting to be recycled too.

Thats the beauty of the EV batteries. they can readily be recycled, and companies will have an incentive to do so because of the valuable metals present in them. There currently isn't a real demand for that type of recycling yet.

The EV field is still so relatively new we are seeing huge gains and new technology every year as more companies enter the field. Look at the 1915 Indian motorcycle; It relied on a total loss oiling system. you pumped oil with a hand pump every couple minutes to lubricate the engine and then it just dripped out on to the road. Looking back that is laughable. Now that most of the major automobile manufacturers have some type of Hybrid or electric vehicle, its ludicrous to assume that the EV technology we have today will still be the same in 15 years.

I assume the first gasoline car was invented before gas stations were in every town.

loudhvx wrote: I assume the first gasoline car was invented before gas stations were in every town.

That's true.

Of course, many don't know that electric cars were actually in production in 1884 (prior to gasoline powered cars) and that they held speed and distance records. But their popularity waned after cars with internal combustion engines were developed. Ed

Well, for me it's the range issue, and/or the recharge time that prevent me from owning an electric vehicle.

Just thinking out loud here, not aimed at any posts... but here is why I *think* electric cars (after the above issues are fixed) will eventually be better than IC driven cars..

Even if power plants burn oil to make power, it's still much more efficient, and cheaper than having a IC engine in every vehicle. It's the benefit of scale, and the fact that electric power demand is very constant (compared to the power demand of an individual vehicle starting and stopping).

At level, cruising highway speed, you need only a tiny portion of the power potential of an IC engine, but you waste so much power just accelerating big aluminum pistons back and forth for no reason (not to mention the drag of a multi-cylinder IC engine, which is significant). A huge, powerful AC induction motor can scale back the power and have almost no penalty while cruising (on level ground). It's like having a V8 for accelerating, which you then disconnect, and shut down, and then turn on a lawn mower engine in the trunk for cruising down the highway, or if there was some way of running on one piston, while the remaining ones stayed stationary somehow (sounds like a mechanical nightmare).

more thinking out loud:
Regarding motor efficiency:

I've been playing around with AC motors lately and if you've ever spun the rotor on one, it's very evident there is extremely low drag on them when unpowered. (There is also low drag on them when they are powered). This is not true of IC engines. (It's also not as true of most DC motors with permanent magnets.)

The tradeoff is that AC induction motors have low torque compared with DC motors or IC engines, so they have to be bigger. But when they go into cruise mode (on level ground), their size and weight do not penalize the efficiency nearly as much.

EDIT: I don't mean to post any of the above stuff as fact. They are thoughts off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many omitted details.

I still love the KZ, though.

Cadillac offered the V8-6-4 engine in 1981. It modulated how many cylinders were "live" depending on the load. It shut off injectors and opened valves to reduce the number of live cylinders. It didn't work well as the technology at the time wasn't up to the task and it was discontinued, but I believe the Chrysler Hemi has been using a similar system for about 10 years. Ed

Well, since we've now (sorta) migrated to autos... My wife wanted a Prius when our last car got totalled, in a rear end collision about 08'. Well Toyota was having problems w/S&D because of battery issues and the wait was more than 6mo, so she got a Honda Civic Hybrid. It's got an 1100cc motor and an AC motor as a "drive assist" motor. So, the window sticker claimed 38mpg hwy and 42 city. When we first got it, she was seeing 40-42 mpg with a daily (hwy/city) commute to her work of ~25mi one way. OK, I can live with this!

[ soapbox ]

Well, right after the first oil change and SW update, things started going downhill really fast! All of the sudden she was seeing ~35mpg! WHAT? Yea, Honda advertises the high number to get you in the door and then does the SW update to make sure you don't toast valves and it now seems they were having battery issues and knew about it! Grrrrrrrr!

Right before the warranty was to expire (2012-13) the battery pack ($2000-3000 to replace) was showing evidence of failed cells in the battery, so Honda, in their infinite wisdom, did another SW update to hide the problem. Want to talk about deception??? This is a prime example of big business trying to wool the eyes of the public! She now gets ~32mpg on her commute. and has <100k miles on the car. She seems to have no problem with the deception and says "it is what it is"... but I call BS!!!

So, all this being said... I WILL NEVER own another car with more than one battery, in my lifetime! ...without the manuf covering their technology 110%. No crappy SW updates... no playing dumb to the customer/consumer... no deception!

Say what you want, but this geek can see this cr@p for what it is. New technology that is not debugged/beta tested extensively before release. Guess they said "Oh, we'll fix it if we have to", but didn't think about their reputation to much. I've owned 3 (now 4) Hondas in the past. All IC powered and was very happy till this POS! Heck, the 89' Accord I drove off the dealers lot got 32mpg (36mpg new) and had 200k miles on it when it was wrecked by my step-son in 2001. So, 20+ years later and the fuel milage is no better??? Honda has their finger up their butt, IMPO... and honestly it's not worth the stress and heartache to (1.) own another Honda, because the Service Managers will spew the company line and not really assist their paying customer(s)... and (2.) THEY ARE LYING SOBS!!!!!!!! and I'll not tolerate this. Damn, what's our society coming to??? Are there any big business who really want to help the consumer, or is what I suspect to be the status quo these days... they only worry about the bottom line and danm the customer?


All I can say at this point is GRRRRRRRRRRR!!! (...and be civil with my statement)

[ /soapbox ]

Yes, but I'm referring to the actual physical movement of the pistons. It takes a lot of energy to accelerate a piston upward, then stop, and accelerate it downward. Opening the valves means you are pumping air in and out. so you still have to use crank power to move the piston.

However, if you could close the valves at TDC and keep them closed, the vacuum could help pull the piston back up, so you could regain some of the energy used to pull the piston down. (And vice versa, if you closed all valves a BDC, air pressure could help push the piston back down). But these are not adiabatic processes so you still lose energy as heat, not to mention the friction on all the moving parts. Plus what about oil accumulation in the cylinder (if it's always under vacuum). Etc.

Always a lot of details get in the way, for both electric and gasoline.

!Seymore wrote: ....

Well, right after the first oil change and SW update, things started going downhill really fast! All of the sudden she was seeing ~35mpg! WHAT? Yea, Honda advertises the high number to get you in the door and then does the SW update to make sure you don't toast valves and it now seems they were having battery issues and knew about it! Grrrrrrrr!

....

I have a 1997 Cadillac Seville with a Northstar 4.6l V-8. It has 206,000 miles on it. It is fast and powerful and still runs like a top. It gets between 28 -31 mpg on the highway; considerably less (20 -22 mpg) in the city.

I also have a 2011 Cadillac CTS with a 3.0l V-6 with variable valve timing. It has less than 10,000 miles on it. It is peppy, but not fast like the Seville. It runs like a top. It gets 28 - 29 mpg on the highway, and in city driving it has somewhat better fuel economy (around 24 mpg) than the Seville.

The only fuel economy advantage of the CTS over the Seville is that the CTS burns regular gas; the Seville requires premium. The later Northstar engines burned regular, but I don't know if their fuel economy was lower. I wish Cadillac still made cars with the Northstar; I would LOVE to have one in the CTS. Ed

My '04 civic has 215,000miles on it and averages 40mpg on my drive to work. Mileage can vary from vehicle to vehicle on these things and no way does a hybrid REALLY beat out a normal car if you already own it, never makes sense to me; when i was working as a pro-wrench I heard that green crap from every owner of a hybrid. It always seemed like that was their main concern and then they realized the mileage wasnt that great, and the prius does 0-60 in something like 13 seconds...

Hybrids; ready, but not all it is cracked up to be
Electric; someday

Oh GM was trying a way to make a gas engine run like a diesel, go into a no spark mode... Dunno what happened to that HCCI they were estimating 20% extra cost and 5% better economy