TOPIC:

Agree.

Your car gets 40 mpg. Let’s assume (please understand this is fiction) that the hybrid version got 45 mpg. The battery pack costs about $3500 to replace. Let’s assume the battery packs needs to be replaced after 10 years and that the car is driven 15,000 per year. So after 150,000 miles there will be a $3500 fee for replacing the battery pack.

150,000/40 = 3,750 so the non-hybrid car has used approx. 3,750 gallons of fuel in 150,000 miles. Assuming the average price was $3.50 per gallon the owner spent $13,125 on fuel during those 10 years.

150,000/45 = 3,333 so the hybrid car has used approx. 3,333 gallons of fuel in 150,000 miles. Assuming the average price was $3.50 per gallon the owner spent $11,665 on fuel during those 10 years.

However, the hybrid owner now needs to spend $3,500 on a new battery pack, so his total cost for fuel and battery pack is $15,165. $15,165 - $13,125 = $2040. That’s how much more the hybrid fuel/battery cost is compared to the non-hybrid fuel cost. In this example, in order for the hybrid fuel/battery cost to break even with the non-hybrid fuel cost the hybrid would need to average 15mpg better fuel economy than the non-hybrid (55 mpg).

Add to that the fact that the purchase price of the hybrid car is higher than that on the non-hybrid and you can see that the hybrid in this example costs considerably more than the non-hybrid.

I’m not saying fuel efficiency cannot and should not be improved. I’m just not convinced we’re there yet or that plug-in or hybrids are the best solution. Personally, I’m in favor of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems in which a flywheel is used to store energy and converts it into electrical power when the car needs to accelerate. Nothing to plug in (and no plug-in range problem); no batteries to recycle; and less cost than battery systems. Look for them between 2018-2020 probably starting in Europe. Ed

floivanus wrote: Hybrids; ready, but not all it is cracked up to be
Electric; someday

^^^Truth
I don't know how this conversation got turned to hybrids, they are terrible at everything, no logical person will argue with that.
Modern electric vehicles are still very much in their infancy, but in the relatively short time that the technology has been realistically pursued they are showing astounding figures. There are now rapid charge stations up and down the i-5 corridor allowing someone to drive from Vancouver to Tijuana filling up the whole way. They are the cusp of being far far better than IC motors can be because there are no regulations. Think about how crazy IC engines would be if there were no emission regulations and people didn't care about economy. Probably would be a alot more rotary engines on the road.

Yup, put me in the anti-hypebrid category.

When my last job sent me to mandatory hybrid classes we covered it all, flywheels in the rear wheels, regenerative braking, HCCI, the only one I thought had any merit was a small gas engine to turn a hydraulic pump to drive a hydraulic powered city bus or garbage truck but of course, like many hybrid ideas that apparently fizzled out.

But hey I got a certificate and a plaque!

Ahhh, I just love to argue

The best kept secret in the world, the first Gen Honda Insight (99-2008 I think), ugly as sin but 70 mpg Highway and 61 mpg City. And $1500 for a replacement battery pack that can be changed by owner.

Honda Insight at The Wiki

The car was the most fuel efficient car available in the U.S. for the length of its production run and is still the leader of any current mass market car.[24][25][26] The Insight earned an EPA fuel economy estimate of 70 miles per US gallon (3.4 L/100 km; 84 mpg-imp) in highway driving, 61 mpg-US (3.9 L/100 km; 73 mpg-imp) city. With air conditioning it was 68 mpg-US (3.5 L/100 km; 82 mpg-imp)/60 mpg-US (3.9 L/100 km; 72 mpg-imp). With a CVT it was 57 mpg-US (4.1 L/100 km; 68 mpg-imp)/56 mpg-US (4.2 L/100 km; 67 mpg-imp). Insight aficionados who are "hypermilers" compete to eke out as many miles as possible from a tank, with some achieving considerably more than the EPA estimates. Some claim to get over 100 mpg (US)

I thought about looking for one, but I drive less than 5k a year now, so I don't hardy need one.

Thanks !Seymore for the link, I totally missed the press on this. I work for one of ZERO's charger suppliers but I'm a KZ die hard. However, this job has put me in the unique position of having ridden more electric motorcycles than I can even talk about (a few were pre-production or prototypes that never made it to production).

What I'll contribute here is that high-performance electric motorcycles like the ZERO S and the Brammo Empulse (both ~$15,000) are in a class on their own. Don't think of them as alternatives to gas, these bikes are their own experience - and that's why we love bikes - the experience (except Harley guys, they love the image and lifestyle).

You all really need to take one for a test ride. I highly recommend it. There's three things I really love about these bikes:

1. The instant torque. Electrons going from the throttle to a motor controller that then blasts a (usually AC) motor is WAY faster at turning your rear wheel than some cables which open a throttle plate which lets more air into the piston, when then has to do a few rpms, which turns a crank which turns some gears.
Picture this: Speeder Bikes from Empire Strikes Back. You turn the throttle and you're gone. It really is like that, and there's nothing out there like it!!!

2. The silence. Ever dream of flying? When you're on a nice open road at medium speed, it's just like you're flying. It's exhilarating.

3. The lightness / power to weight ratio. A bit of a combination of the two above. In gasoline motorcycles today you just can't get that much torque in that light of a package. It's a thrill.

Sorry, I'm not trying to sell something, I'm just trying to describe what I've had the pleasure of experiencing!!!

As for caveats.. yes, range. The issue is power density: say a 10kWh lithium pack will get you about 100miles or so. It's about the size of the entire engine and fuel tank. On a mid-range 600cc motorbike you'd probably only need 2-3 gallons of gasoline to do that. But lithium packs get a little better every year, and if you're just using the bike for in-city jaunts, 50 miles might be all you need.

A few other neat things from my work with these electric motorcycle guys:

Coolest Lookingwww.agilitymotors.com ($40,000!!!)

Baddest Lookingwww.litogreenmotion.com ($50,000!!!)

Pikes Peak contenderwww.amarokracing.ca (Go Canada!)

!Seymore wrote: Say what you want, but this geek can see this cr@p for what it is. New technology that is not debugged/beta tested extensively before release. Guess they said "Oh, we'll fix it if we have to", but didn't think about their reputation to much. I've owned 3 (now 4) Hondas in the past. All IC powered and was very happy till this POS! Heck, the 89' Accord I drove off the dealers lot got 32mpg (36mpg new) and had 200k miles on it when it was wrecked by my step-son in 2001. So, 20+ years later and the fuel milage is no better??? Honda has their finger up their butt, IMPO... and honestly it's not worth the stress and heartache to (1.) own another Honda, because the Service Managers will spew the company line and not really assist their paying customer(s)... and (2.) THEY ARE LYING SOBS!!!!!!!! and I'll not tolerate this. Damn, what's our society coming to??? Are there any big business who really want to help the consumer, or is what I suspect to be the status quo these days... they only worry about the bottom line and danm the customer?

Yeah, you Civic Hybrid owners really got boned. Honda did a real disservice to the Hybrid technology. But hey didn't you get your class action lawsuit settlement? If not... maybe you should ask your wife what she spent it on!

hchsettlement.com/

You're quite welcome... and thank you for your insite on this. Yes, I've flown... or at least that's what it felt like... when I was much much younger, in a dream. So I so know to what you refer. The sensation was unreal! I do look forward to seeing where these go, But as a geek (IT since 86'), I know the shortcoming/limitations of our current batteries. It will take a huge leap in tech for me to be truly sold on them.

inline79 wrote: Thanks !Seymore for the link, I totally missed the press on this.

<<snip>>
Coolest Lookingwww.agilitymotors.com ($40,000!!!)

Baddest Lookingwww.litogreenmotion.com ($50,000!!!)

Pikes Peak contenderwww.amarokracing.ca (Go Canada!)

OMG! That Saietta R is one butt ugly bike! Don't know if you'd pay me enough... but to each their own. The other 2 are more conventional and more to my liking. But as I said above, time will tell and I'm watching keenly. Still not sold on the tech side...

inline79 wrote: Yeah, you Civic Hybrid owners really got boned. Honda did a real disservice to the Hybrid technology. But hey didn't you get your class action lawsuit settlement? If not... maybe you should ask your wife what she spent it on!

hchsettlement.com/

Yea, we got it. But $250 is a drop in the bucket compared to the worry I have with driving it long distances any more. But, it's the wifes commuter and she seems to be ok with it. Gotta also put a value on the lying sales maggot that sold her on it. Far more than 250 bones. I told her the batteries were an issue for me... but she's a woman! What can I do? It's what she wanted... <<heavy sigh>>

She's now onboard with no more Hybrids. Only took till the battery took it's first crap almost 4 years after buying it and "H" did a SW update to hide the problem. Some peoples wives... (yea, I know...)

Since we're bashing Honda's 3-card monty on mileage, let me pile on.

The late 1990's Civics, in America, have a little mystery wire on the alternator. I found out the hard way that the purpose of this little wire is to shut down the alternator when cruising at steady speeds and not using too many accessories. Most of the world did not get this setup.

So my girlfriend's car kept killing the battery. I put a voltmeter on the alternator and watched the voltage drop to below 12v as we went on the highway. Even with a service manual, I could not find any notices about this "feature" so naturally, experience would dictate it's time for a new alternator. $100 later, I check the alternator, and it's rock solid 14.5v, however, I later discovered it was up at 14.5v because we had the lights on. A week later, battery is dead again. So another $100 and we have a new battery, as all of the cycling killed it. Then I check the voltage again, no lights this time, and sure enough the voltage drops to below 12 while cruising.
It took quite a of digging and I found that Honda added this "feature" simply because it raised the apparent MPG of the car during the time that the alternator was off, Basically it was using stored battery energy to temporarily increase the MPG just so it could advertise the better number. But what happens when you then have to recharge the battery? That's right, you have to burn more gas to recharge the battery. But as long as you only look at the miles when the alternator is off, it looks like you have better MPG.

What a scam. Of course I spent a few hours studying how it worked, and luckily, it turned out all you have to do is cut that mystery wire. Had I known that sooner, it would have saved us $200. There are many other proposed methods of bypassing this feature, but cutting the wire is the simplest.

inline79 wrote: Coolest Lookingwww.agilitymotors.com ($40,000!!!)

Baddest Lookingwww.litogreenmotion.com ($50,000!!!)

Pikes Peak contenderwww.amarokracing.ca (Go Canada!)

They are pretty expensive still. In another 10 years when they have some better, cheaper batteries figured out they will be awesome. for the moment they are COMPLETELY out of my price range.

IMHO the "Mission R"($29k) is the best looking of the electric bikes I have seen, but it is a bit more traditionally styled. "140 real world miles" per charge. 160HP at the wheel instantly.... sounds like a hell of a ride.